patch version 100003 - no addons

The new patch that was applied yesterday has all of the forums in a rage.  Many API functions were removed or limited, and many popular addons no longer work.  The buff and debuff visibility seems to be the hottest change that stirred up a lot of anger.

I don't think this will upset Gaiscioch members near as much as the general populations on Bethesda forums, Tamriel Foundry, and Reddit.   It seems like a drastic late change, so personally I doubt all of the changes are final.  What is everyone here thinking about version 100003 so far?

I believe they did it for take out the 'advantage' and 'disadvantage' for those players who use it or don't use it.
They say something last time regards this changes, and they wanted to mantain the game the most equal possibile for the player. They did, I believe, for those people who would be obliged to download it for be 'competitive'.

@edit: as for me, I think is a good one. I like the change, because I prefer to enjoy the game just as they created it and without icons, number, etc. I choose and Elder Scrolls for this reason too, and although I enjoy add-ons that makes the game more agradable (like the one which put the relative rarity-colors for the items) , I disagree with the ones which give you too many information about the combat&co. 

Saying no addons is a stretch, no addons giving away all the info about your enemy more correct.

Although i havent seen it yet, i kind of like the sound of things. Keeping an even playing field is always hard, but at least they are mindful of it and trying to maintain a balance. I just hope we still can have the minimap addon. That is golden to me.

this do not bother me to see what buffs the enemy has.

Most people want everything on a silver platter.

This line from the change log is getting most of the attention.

Restricted information that GetUnitBuffInfo has access to. It can now only be used to discover long term buffs about the local player. As such, the final return value "isLongTermBuff" has been removed since the API only returns long-term buffs.

Trying to watch for particle effects on yourself to know when to slef-cleanse a debuff will be hard. 

For healers, trying to watch for particle effects on teammates to know know when to cleanse them will be an impossible strain on the eyes.

If they would extend GetUnitBuffInfo to also discover short term buffs on the local player, that would be a hundred times better.  If they would extend it to discover short term buffs on alliance members (but not not PvP enemies), that would be a thousand times better.

I'm all in favor of add-ons that fit with what you would have available as a person if you were in that particular situation.  Those would be things that could easily be communicated with a quick look or signal and obviously those things you would immediately know about yourself, such as debuffs, dots, skill cool-downs, loot you picked up, pack space, gold, etc. 

I don't agree with being able to discern things you couldn't possibly be privy to simply because the game is privy to everything and all one has to do is tap into that.  The most fun I have had in the game was doing a group dungeon when we were being zerged by the content and having to scan the combatants while fighting in order to focus on those nasty healers!

I applaud the devs for being ever watchful and continually adjusting the game to make it a really great game for everyone!

My client is version 1.0.0.941004  Is this new version for the PTS only?  I think such changes to the API, as much as I like mods, will be for the better.  Partial discussion on another thread.  Like mentioned above, allow all that info about party/alliance members, just not "enemies"

Will be interesting to see how this plays out.

I care little that they removed information about enemies. What I do care about is them restricting information regarding my own character and my allies. Half tempted to go back across the fence. 

@Grymjack - Yes, this version is build 1.0.0.950959 which the PTS received about 24 hours ago.    I had to disable my Foundry Tactical Combat add-on since it's no longer compatible with the newest PTS build. 

I'm OK with Zenimax's decision on this in general, though I wish they kept the API that would display temporary buffs/debuffs for youself.   

I am definitely ok with it - I don't use them.   They have often stated that they would not allow addons that would give a player an advantage over another player who didn't use the same addon.   Being able to see buffs/debuffs whether on yourself, friends, or enemies is a distinct advantage so why are people surprised this happened. 

Just because it came a couple of weeks before release doesn't really matter - the fact that they did it before release is great.  It was a Beta - we all know that things change - sometimes things we don't like change - even just days before launch.

They made the statement in one of their question/answering sessions that such addons would not be permitted.  The game from its inception was to be minimalistic - recognize the effects and do what you need to do.  Will it be easy - no, but the game was never intended to be "easy" and I am sorry some people don't like it.   But with the possibility of putting so many addons into the game that it becomes like WOW for the sake of "ease" would bother me a whole lot more than not having any.

I like the move in general. I don't like games where I feel compelled to use add-ons because if I don't it is not possible to compete with those who do for all practical purposes. Add-ons that don't have that impact do not bother me, but I'd rather see the other type out of the game altogether.

Pretty upset myself, because not having access to basic combat resources is a bit laughable, especially if they want to be able to pull off any sort of challenging PvE content in the later Adventure Zones.

From my understanding the API that they had available was nowhere near as robust as many other MMOs and it was already limited in what it could do. The modders that created addons like @atropos that created FTC at tamrielfoundry.com basically added the missing BASIC information from the UI that most people are used to in every other available MMO on the maket. Cast Bars, buff/debuff tracking,  health/magicka/stamina tracking, damage input/output tracking, DPS/HPS tracking, and all farily minimized. Most called this unfair, because they didn't want to download an add-on, but honestly it should have been something that was built into the base UI and from talking to players at TF it actually was built in a long long time ago, but was gutted after a slew of complaints from TES purists.

Now not all of the information has been stripped. From what @atropos reports the API lost the ability to utilize cast bars, buff tracking under 30 seconds and debuff tracking. As well as damage input from enemies and healing input from players. Not sure where these things really give anyone an unfair advantage if they did what they should have done and made this innately available to EVERYONE in a bloody combat log on your chat log...

I've been an avid raider for many years and I can tell you from a PvE aspect it's critical to progression to see what killed you or what did x damage to you. This sort of information is what forms sound strategies and helps you overcome an ecounter.

Example: If you tank gets hit for 2000 damage from a mob unmitigated and and dies during a certain mechanic he can then deduce that he should need to pop a Cooldown or re-evaluate his gear / skill choices to improved his EH "effective health" to survive the hit.

Example: Raid gets hit by an unavoidable AoE that healers need to be ready to heal at a specific time to ensure the raid doesn't die. Knowing that the dot ticks for X damage and how fast will allow the healers to time and appropriately select their heals to conserve magicka and avoid a potential raid wipe.

Those are two pretty common things that people look at in death logs or damage taken to see what's hitting them or whom. Also being able to record this data and export to a site to further evaluate who got hit by what, what did the most damage to the raid, what different types of damage were there and who was more prone to them (melee/Ranged) are all things that help raid leaders effectively evaluate an encounter and push progression.

Now we don't know if Adventure Zones are going to bring this level of Depth to PvE as other MMOs have and I quite frankly hope it does, but I don't see them being able to execute some of the encounters if the basic combat information is not available for raiders to evaluate.

Also I know this was very PvEcentric, but most of this can be applied to PvP in a round about sense. The same general rules apply.

Just my 2 cents.

I think this reaction was a bit over the top.  I can agree with not seeing enemy magicka and stamina and cast bars.  What is most upsetting, as a chronic healer and support player, is the removal of the buff indicators.  I understand they want us to play the game and not rely on the UI, but this has made it worse I think.  Several buffs and debuffs are extremely hard to see and numerous have overlapping effects with different timers.  No instead of a quick glance at my health bar/buffs/debuffs, I have to try and scrutinize every tiny aspect about my character.  Is that swirly thing around me an off-balance, degeneration, something else?  And now I have to try and watch that for all my allies as well.  Tough to understand why I cannot get buff/debuff information for my allies.  All the other changes I am fine with.

@Morigana, by not allowing players to see specific debuffs and relying on the cracks in your health bar or the arrows to tell you that you have a dot or hostile effect on you is not skill...that's a broken system that ends up ill equipping people trying to make informed decisions on who to dispell. Healers already pay a truck ton of Magicka for purges and if they spend all day purging debuffs that may or may not be life threatening thet are going to end up OOM very quick and fairly useless in their role outside of damage and wait for regen. Also not knowing when someone has a healing debuff....yeah that's NOT good..

Also as stated previously, the information provided in much of the addons that were presented over the last year were all filling in the gaps of basic information provided in every other online game. Not to mention most of it was actually in earlier builds, but stricken due to an outpouring of TES fans that didn't want addons. Not it seems it's swung the other way and the internet is up in arms over the fact that ZOS has pulled out basic MMO functionality 2 weeks before launch.

ZOS has to walk a delicate edge between TES fans and MMO fans if they want to keep the lights on and I think it's not a hard bargain to at least give the MMO crowd access to the BASIC information that they're used to. Most don't even care if it's in an add-on as long as they build it into the base UI and hey they can even make it "optional" for the minimalists who DON'T want to see the info all the time.

CHEEZE FOR EVERYONE!!

The visual effects to interrupt people/mobs is blatant enough that the cast bars are not needed... but to remove the ability to track buffs and debuffs on your self or target as well as not being able to see them in your team is not only a dumb move, but kills those who min/max their characters. So in what they've done is reward  those who don't care about rotations, maximizing their dam output, minimizing their damage intake, and basically over all game mechanics while punishing those of us that see and play the game as a big calculator who plug in equations and tinker with the math behind the game.

This is a bad move on their part, if the UI gave more of the information then it wouldn't be a problem.... but there is a point where minimalist is to much.... and this is to much. There just isn't enough information given on the base UI.

@Aunvyrae,

You basically hit the nail on the head for most of the arguments going on right now about the further API restrictions. ZOS has failed at displaying basic functional MMO data in the minimalist UI and has not done anything to really develop it further. Modders were requested to test the API, filled in those gaps and they further restricted the API after an outpour of players crying foul that it was in an add-on and on in the UI and didn't even seem to re-evaluate the reasons why they should have put it in there in the frist place.

I think this entire API issue would be moot if the BASIC information was available to us.

Take FFXIV A Realm Reborn for instance. There are no add-ons supported in that game, but you don't see people screaming from the roof tops for them, because the developers gave everyone the BASIC INFORMATION to effectively evaluate PvE encounters. You could track debuffs and buffs on the NPCs, your party, and yourself. You could TELL what was hitting YOU and OTHERS, and you could make sound decisions on healing and mitigation based off the data provided. I can't speak for the PvP in that game, because I never took part in it when it was added.

Also the entire UI was fairly minimalist, completely customizable, to the point that could choose what you did and did not want to see and how it was displayed. So I don't see where they can't achieve this in ESO and preserve the minimalist feel. There have already been modders that were toying with slimmed down magicka and stamina bars for NPCs below their health bars as well as streamlined buff/debuff trackers.

I agree with allowing all information available about your party/alliance members/self.  I want VERY limited info about the opposing player.  That could VERY easily end up with auto-interrupt mods, etc that would quickly make PvP unplayable.

@Grymjack

There aren't any mods that allow you to auto-block/interrupt etc.  Those are all the product of third party software.

while info from the UI is important imho the raiding culture has gotten spoiled to the point where you are looking at a stop watch or watching a tool tip or lua-scripted buff bar instead of reacting to in-game visual queues or communicating with your fellows.  I'm glad for the change. - M.

EDIT: though i don't think that it is going to be this way on release. They will reach some middle ground.

Personally I don't care much either way. Also I don't believe ZOS will leave it as it is. More likely this was a knee jerk reaction to the possibility of exploits by third party programs. Soon as they recode it they'll probably put it back in the game, either via API for add-ons or in basic UI. 

As to the problems in PvE, just recently I watched a cast (not sure if Shoddycast, ESO Alliance or some other) in which they practically begged  to have some real hard content put in, even to put in impossible to  overcome mobs and missions. They came from a point that there are always people beating this kind of challenge. So all the complaining about missing basic MMO functionality might only drive the more skilled players to try more often and try harder. These ideas often come up when an MMO has been "beaten" so there's no new content to challenge. If they made it harder to beat the bosses by removing helpful input this may prolong the life of the game. 

"Patience and perseverance have a magical effect before which difficulties disappear and obstacles vanish." - John Quincy Adams

Some MMO players often seem to lack both those qualities.

Quite a few of the addons still work, you can get the FTC scrolling combat numbers to work, and the dps/hps tracker.

Addons i am using right now:

mhFramework

FoundryTacticalCombat

FTCCombatLog

mhOutfitter

lol just noticed when i log in one of the addons shows the nerf bat!!

My only question is this.  Can I see my own debuffs applied to an enemy?

@Gunda

That combat log made me laugh so hard I poured coffee on my keyboard. And it was worth it, too. Love the API Nerf Bat event.

@Gunda

LOL thanks for the screenshot. I saw the Paul Sage hit You for 20 with API Neft Bat and I laughed pretty hard. Saw this last night and was like "modders taking pot shots at the devs...priceless"

I don't have a problem with them pushing the play of this game away from the stat/numbers based play of many MMOs. Just because there is an established method of evaluating strategies and improving play style in other MMOs that has been based upon damage analysis and such, doesn't mean they can't shift the paradigm and creative, thoughful players will be able to adapt and thrive.

I think the API gave to much information before they changed it. So I am mostly for this I am glad we can't see:

 - enemy Magika/Stamina

 - what spell is being cast at me

 - what buffs they have on them (something we can work out by watching the effect ie hmm fire didn't hit for as much as usual change damage type)

 - Debuffs on enemy (if I put it there I know roughly how long it lasts up to me to refresh when I think it is up)

Stuff I should know:

 - enemy Health because well we can see all the holes and singes

 - that the enemy is doing something unusual which we get from the spell and Heavy hit animation

They may have gone too far on the buffs/debuffs to players in our own group though, then again they may have pulled that with the rest so they had something they could put back into the API in response to player requests

 - Debuffs on enemy (if I put it there I know roughly how long it lasts up to me to refresh when I think it is up)

This isn't entirely true. Some of my builds are very dot heavy, and it's hard to tell what has which timer left on it when all the times of dots are different and the only information I get is >< 1 dot >><< 2 dots {)[}) armor debuff. You really need timers on your debuffs on your target to maximize up time vs resource usage.

Probably the worst thing ZOS did was to open up the API then restrict it. Most don't complain about what they don't know about/never got used to having. It's like taking candy away from a child - now all the children that loved the candy are "crying" about it. I like the idea that it's a level playing field - everyone should have access to the same info. If it makes you play this MMO differently than other ones, so be it. If you don't like a restriction on every data point, then maybe it's not for a certain type of min/max player.

It seems like there is a very loud, small group of players trying to force ZOS to do what other devs have done with their API - going as far as to say the game cannot be played without it as it just "guess work". I think it's a distraction ZOS does not need this close to launch.

I'd read somewhere that they had only left the API open for beta/pts and had intended to lock it down for live from the word go.

Either way, I don't mind using just visual cues, as long as there ARE visual cues I mean...  I've been playing a DK with the Wep Skill buff and I can't see if the buff is up on my allies or not so I'm having to count it off in my head.  While this is not too terribly hard for an ol' Shadow Warrior who's used to timing morals, as well as skill cool downs from almost all MMO's, I do still think there should be SOME visual cue if they're not going to allow mods to track that kind of stuff.

I saw somewhere that ZOS stated something like : "Sorry guys, we are not taking the game the direction that you want" regarding request of keep powerful add-ons.

I respect ZOS on their stance to stick to their vision and it is, in my opinion, making them like the Blizzard of old, like the Blizzard that earn lots of gamer loyalty in the past.

Personally I would rather do away with the combat related add-ons.  Bottom line is using add-ons should not add advantage to the user in either PvE or PvP.  Because it will then become a requirement that a part of the community will force on other community member if they want to compete at all.

IMO, just because most MMOs have provided this kind of information doesn't mean ZOS is wrong by not including it (either in the UI or via the API). I think they just want to do something different – they want ESO to be played in a different way. They want players to approach it differently.

I think of it like Poker – you could play with everyone's hole cards face up and have complete information about what decision you should make, but that would make it a very different game.

Interesting article from 2012: How The Elder Scrolls Online plans to improve MMOs: "I look at the world, not at my hotbar"

They just made things perfect!  Love the change. Game needed this limiting to keep things balanced. Very happy. As a person whose main is a healer yes I love it.

Edit:: After now researching into this more Ive found that things have been a bit exaggerated. half + of the add-ons still work. Not only that but people are and can adjust  add-ons still to fit the new limits.

 Further after going over many sites an forums and online debate the VAST majority of people like this change. it is a small tiny amount that are complaining over it.

@Soulshine Sorry, I did not mean to imply that all players who are tracking info about themselves is just 'looking at a stop watch'. I meant to imply that some of the modern raiding culture has degenerated into one that games 'looking at a stop watch'. When you spend more time looking at buff bars or literally looking at a stop watch (i have been in raids in both lotro and swotro where this has literally happened). Then something is wrong with the game design imo. This is why i'm glad for the change. I personally like the design decision they took.

However, locking down the API completely would to make raiding 'serious content' so much harder. I do not see any of the traditional tools (like target assist or target forwarding for instance) available in this game.  Without tools it will be very difficult for tanks, healers and even dps. If they are going to have traditional raiding content in the game then they need to provide the tools to complete said content.

I think they are trying for something different... and even though they are trying to move away from a heavy UI (Aethena's link), I think in the end they will reach a middle ground that will work. I think we will have an API that allows you to see friendly buffs/debuffs etc... This should be enough at least enough for healing and combat logging.

@Maegh that's all I'm asking for. To make it where you can't track your own debuffs/buffs is just creating more guess work for the player, and players who are like myself and try to improve their game play will be limited with out that information. it's needed, and I have yet to see any MMO that doesn't include this very basic UI information.

When i first saw that Combat addon, i thought it was something taken right out of the World of Warcraft-Addon-Porn-Playbook.  It's colorful floating numbers just....it was so out of place and it actually made me scream a little bit inside.

I'm so darn happen ZeniMax took a stance, I'm so done with the Unnecessary-hand-holding-days, please people, leave those days where they belong, -in the past. 

If people who want to contribute to the Addon/mod community, i mean "really contribute"  please create some more fancy GFX enhancement mods, those are always a welcome sight.

Or heck, why not go all out "Balls-crazy" and create a mod that alters the looks of Armor and Weapons client-side. (not quite sure if that's been stated that would be allowed or not)

Client side remodeling of gear or graphics or even animations are normally in that category of no-no's for MMO's.

Aunvyrae: "Client side remodeling of gear or graphics or even animations are normally in that category of no-no's for MMO's."

Agreed, this is true.

But this isn't your average MMORPG either, and this is Bethesda and ZeniMax we are talking about, if any Game Studio & Publisher can break the industry boundaries and complex taboo's -it's these guys.

It's not so much you can't do it, it's more the fact if you get caught you get banned. When SWG released the NGE and  removed all the old lightsaber animations from the old Master Sabers skill tree I found a mod that put them back in. Now no one else could see my character use the animations I fell in love with, but if I had gotten caught using it I would have been banned. So I can't really see any game company in the near future allowing something like this in an MMO. Maybe when we can plug the game into the back of our heads with our implanted data link port.