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News from: MMORPG.com
Traditionally, at least for the MMO genre, the more information available to players via the game's UI, the better. As a result, MMO UI designs often end up being deficient in some way, and depending on how much foresight the developers had, the UI is maligned and rigidly remains as is, or the UI is moddable and the player community releases a slew of mods to shore things up.
Read More at: MMORPG.com
As someone who used the Foundry's Tactical mod last weekend....and liked it, I am in favor of mods in general. However (and you know there was one), much of the serious debate seems not to rage around UI info overload, or playing the UI rather than the game, but the ability to make mods that are unfair.
One such mod I have seen referenced is the auto-interrupt mod. Essentially, the mod maker can make something that watches for certain spells being cast and automatically cast an interrupt. From what I've looked into, the API doesn't allow key presses to be generated by mods. But it can make colors on the screen. Then a 3rd party app, I've heard AutoHotkey talked about, can watch for the color appearance and trigger the keypress. With the wealth of MMOG experience in this clan I would be interested in both sides of the question.
1) Allow the API to release this type of abusable information, then get in a arms races trying to stop all the abuse.
2) Restrict/Eliminate the API and reduce the fun/choices of the playerbase. ESO is about choice after all.
This is the reason in general that I hate mods. Because people take the lazy way out, instead of relying on actual skills to play the game and then yell at those of us who refuse to use these so called cheats and lazy tools to learn to actually play the game based on skills. That being said I know their are some who might claim weakened reflexes or age as an excuse to use these but let's face it, a cheat is still a. Heat no matter how it is incorporated or viewed. In the past I have used. Ods in some games, mostly because I would get yelled at for not having them. Whe. I say use, well I downloaded and installed them but frankly I did not actually use them or rely on them. The only mods I did use relied on monitoring dps because of all the pugs I had to endure and needing to know whose threat to watch for when pulling Aggro off me, or some addon to see gear that dropped and what mobbed dropped it so I didn,t have to window out to look that info up.
So for me, I would rather have it if eso didn't allow them, but instead took a poll or kept a thread with what players would like to see added to the ui. I think they can gradually add in this stuff themselves and they can decide if they really want to add the lazy man features. Right now the only thing I really need on the ui is a clock, so I can keep an idea on what time it is without windowing out or keeping an extra device nearby just to know the time. As for extra stats and info, I think adding a tab with that extra information would be easier than relying on an addon and keep the ui fro being to bulky, just something the players can turn on or leave off their HUD as they see fit.
I hate mods. hate them. Mods allow shortcuts. Shortcuts weaken skill base, which makes for lazy par average players able to play better and not have to pay attention as much. I say play the game as is. pay attention to movements, icons,effects, etc etc. It is this kinda thing that makes the difference between a sharp minded good player and the average to weak players that cant handle it.
Yes I have a distaste for anyone that uses shortcuts of skill to win.
Ronin
With my arthritis and carpal tunnel, some mods are a life saver. I don't see the mods as cheating, or giving me an unfair advantage. Some mods (like healbot in WoW), just simplify things, resulting in less pain and discomfort.
Other mods i've seen, have been so creative and useful, the MMO ends up implementing the functionality into the game.
I am one of those "old" guys who doesn't have the reflexes to keep up with you youngsters. :-)
Ideally, I'd rather rely upon skill, but in a PvP style game, I'm at a real disadvantage. If a mod might help me be competitive, it could be the difference between my being a liability to or a contributor to the group effort. That said, if the elite players (and I'm not using that term negatively, but as a recognition that many of you are extremely skilled at these games) won't snipe at those of us with less ability about "not pulling our weight" or holding back the group because we can't perform at the same level as you, then we old, slow guys would have no reason to want or need the crutch of a mod. If, however, I am going to be subjected to criticism (actual or implied) or be left out because I'm not as good as the best--then I am more or less forced to try anything that might give me a chance--after all, I am paying to play the game and it is the direction the Guild is going, whether I like it or not.
I ran into to elite players looking down on those who weren't up to their standards repeatedly in WOW--everything was measured by the DPS meter and the difference in a keystroke pressed a half second too late could be enough to make your DPS fall below what was acceptable to some people. When that happened, I found that I wasn't accepted or wanted for raids except when no one else was available. Consequently my raid experience and my gear was always less than most of the others. It becomes a snowball effect and I found it impossible to catch-up or keep up until I got in with the right guild that practiced player development, helped me learn, would make runs especially for the lesser experienced and lesser-geared members solely to help build-up the available pool of guild members who would contribute. In that case, the PEOPLE in the guild replaced the need for the artificial assistance afforded by MODS. I would suggest that the same principle would apply in ESO--the need for MODS is more likely to be dictated by the attitudes of the players one is associated with rather than the actual efficacy of the MOD itself.
I am concerned that in a game where published rankings are an official part of the game, a situation will develop--as it did in WOW--where a relatively few, highly skilled players, will constitute a de facto "upper class" and the rest of us become relegated to a lower class whose play and participation choices are limited because we can't meet certain minimum standards of performance. In that case, if combat mods can alleviate that situation, then I am for them. The skilled players who don't need them, don't have to use them and should actually welcome the fact that using combat mods might make fewer players a liability. However, I can certainly understand the resistance of skilled players to mods if those mods enable lesser-skilled players to out-compete those who don't use them, but would otherwise be superior. It becomes something like the discussion regarding performance enhancing drugs in pro sports: the best don't need them to be the best, but if the rest use them, then the best have no other choice to do likewise in order to remain the best. Unfortunately, any competitive game or sport will necessarily foster that type of situation. If ESO, by design, wants to create a competitive situation through rankings, but retain as many paying players as possible, then it behooves them to design a system that rewards superior players without also penalizing the average player. That is difficult to do. It many end-up that MODs are the only way some players can remain viable in the game and if both ESO and Gaiscioch want to keep player/members, then they will have to make it possible for the average, but paying, player to be able to play "when they want, as they want" even if that play style does not necessarily meet the standards of the elite or highly competitive.
That said, I really enjoyed most of the non-combat related MODs that assisted in navigation, communication, and organization of in-game WOW gear, etc. Raidcall is, in effect, a MOD in the sense that it improves on the in-game communication, even if it doesn't actually modify or add to the game client programming itself. From that standpoint, I would vote for allowing the API to accept MODs, even if they were limited to non-combat MODs only.
I'm all for UI mods. I think they are an asset that can help any player be better. A lot of MMOs UI's limit the information that can be displayed on the screen, and from an old MMO raid lead/class lead I find that the info you can get to be shown through Ui addons necessary. On the other hand you have addons that tell you your DPS rotations and ta-tel tail addons that play the game for you. Instead of you paying attention to your surroundings the addon monitors it for you and flashes big colors across your scren telling you what you need to do. These I don't agree with and feel it takes away from the skill of the game. it also forces those who have skill to get it to stay competitive creating a vicious circle.
UI/info mods are fine imho, but i have certainly seen a pile of cheat bots in games. Pixel detection stuff is bad news. Darkfall was completely overrun by people who could never miss you in battle due to ranged attacks shooting off automatically when your pixels crossed their path. Let's hope that there are a multitude of people and processes in place to look for this and instaban people
Lateralus, unfortunately that is usually the result of a addon coupled with a 3rd party program. And other than the Dev team going through and checking the data files for any thing suspicious in that area, there isn't a whole lot to do. And to be quite honest, 90% of the time you don't need the addon for the 3rd party program to do that. I'm just really hoping that they crack down on certain addons and keep them out of the game like the did with DAOC and especially radar addons. This could be a big time pvp breaker.
Not a fan of any add on that makes what the devs created any easier or trivializes any portion of play be it pve or pvp.
I agree Aunvyrae, I hope they stay on top of things like Odin's Eye and others that plagued DAoC.
Lateralus, unfortunately that is usually the result of a addon coupled with a 3rd party program. And other than the Dev team going through and checking the data files for any thing suspicious in that area, there isn't a whole lot to do. And to be quite honest, 90% of the time you don't need the addon for the 3rd party program to do that. I'm just really hoping that they crack down on certain addons and keep them out of the game like the did with DAOC and especially radar addons. This could be a big time pvp breaker.
THIS...I don't want the MMO that I feel has the potential to be a WOW killer to be sidetracked by having to take away new content resources to tracking down cheaters and hackers who get their thrills from illegitimately dominating game-play. Even worse, if ESO gets the reputation of being the home-base for cheaters, then that would chase away the type of players I think we would all enjoy playing with. I would rather have no mods with the choice being [l33t] KILLYOU_666 getting two months worth of yuks, then going on to ruins someone else's game time. I believe ESO PvP has the potential for raising the bar to the next level for MMOs. With this type of cheating affecting PvP more than anything else, I would hate for anything to take away from that.
I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place because I like mods that let me chose options beyond what the devs are providing. I think a compromise is possible by simply restricting the information that the API gives out. Don't say what spell is being cast, outside of health and damage inflicted, give very little information out on any targets. But perhaps lots of info on you and members of your party.
Did anyone use addons during the betas? If so, which ones and what did you think?
Yes, I used the Tamriel Foundry's Tactical Combat addon. I liked it.
Here is a video of the addon in action with an article discussing some of the concerns.
I used three of them during beta, Tactical Combat Addon, a quest tracker addon (allows me to track more than 1 quest at a time), and a toolbar addon basically just changed the skin of it slightly. I can see where the information the FTC addon gives could be called an advantage, but from a healer/tank stand point it gives much needed information to two key roles in group settings that the default UI doesn't give. So I'm torn on this one.
Also, going back to my previous post, I think that Minimaps should be kept out of the game, it's be to easy to code one with a radar set up for PVP. I like the fact that the Compass makes it feel more immersed. I mean like when you are looking at a map you are not aware of your surroundings as much as if you where just walking in a direct line with a compass in your hands. Where as a mini map removes that part of immersion.
I am ambivalent to addons that give more information, you still have to absorb and act on it.
Addons that automatically take actions based on what someone else has done I am totally against, that someone could block or interupt in portions of a sec without doing anything themselves is to me cheating.
I don't like addons that give you information you can't get in-game without the addon. So for FTC I don't like the fact that it will show my opponent my stamina & magicka. I'm also not that crazy about it showing buffs/debuffs. While I think you can see these in-game, they can be difficult if not impossible to see in a mass of people and I think it takes some skill (or at least some effort) to recognise them.
I modded the heck out of my UI in WoW and still do – and I will admit that in WoW I probably spend more time looking at bars and numbers than anything else (particularly as a healer). One of the things I enjoyed in my two beta weekends with ESO was actually watching and reacting to what was happening around me as opposed to what I was seeing in my UI. I saw FTC in a few videos that I watched and literally went "Eww that looks so WoW-like." I love WoW – I just don't want ESO to be like WoW.
Giving the player incomplete information is a valid choice in game design, imo. I mean, what would poker be like if all the cards were dealt face up?
Thought I would revive this thread with a post I found that addresses some of these issues.
Well I sure hope they block half of what the FTC can do and any mod that does similar. Seeing more of your own toons personal info is one thing an fine. Seeing ANYthing of the enemys personal info is undebatable cheating period.
