Is anyone else skeptical that Zenimax and Bethesda can pull this off?

I hadn't planned on playing ESO, but since GSCH is heading that way, I'll pre-order it and play it. The more I think about it this week, though, the more I have trouble imagining it being decent.

Morrowind was my favourite Elder Scrolls game, but I've played Oblivion and Skyrim as well. I like the concept of the games, but we all know that there are always a ton of bugs, glitches, and then ways to glitch the game. MMOs are even more complex, so if they can't get a single-player RPG in a highly controlled environment working well, how are they going to get an MMO working well? Especially one that is cross-platform to the Xbox and Playstation.

I was picturing myself playing an alchemist who maybe also does some enchanting and smithing. But surely potions won't work the same way in ESO--you can't just pause and chug as many healing potions as you need, or stack up a dozen different buffs. I'd love to see player-run stores like SWG, and am hopeful for that, but haven't found any information yet. And since the game is being designed to work on consoles at the same time as PCs, we're either going to get a terrible inventory system (like DCUO) or a very simplistic one that is less than I'd hope to see.

ANet has struggled with WvW and lag. CCP (EVE-Online) struggled for years to handle having a couple thousand people in the same area. These are companies with long histories and tons of experience. Bethesda and Zenimax don't have that experience, but seem to be promising more than either ANet or CCP have been able to deliver in terms of PVP, megaservers, and everyone being able to engage with everyone. So more skepticism.

I'm still enjoying GW2 a lot, and I look forward to seeing what ESO has to offer. But with GW2, I knew far ahead of time that it was going to be great, and I trusted ANet to deliver. I have trouble trusting Bethesda to do the same, especially after their last deviation with Brink.

Am I alone in these thoughts? Can anyone mollify my concerns?

One of the things you need to realize is this isnt the team that build skyrim or morrowind or oblivion. That team works separately. They are under the guidance of that team and act as advisors but this team was recruited piece by piece almost 7 years ago to make this game. The networking team is largely from eve online, the executive producer and pvp team is made up of original mythic employees who made camelot pre toa. They have a buch of people from 38 studios as well and a bunch from blizzard. The team that is building this game is built from the brightest minds in the mmo sector of gaming. Rest at ease that the buggyness should not be that bad. The version I played in oct 2012 was very stable. I had no glitches or bugs at all in my 4 hours playing it. Additionally they have one of the largest qa teams ive seen in a mmo studio. 

All I ask is you try it for a month after release. If you hate it you can blame me but im willing to bet that wont be the case.

Honestly from what I have seen of it so far it feels like an Elder Scroll game with some mmo standards added in. Those MMO additions have been very glaring and do need to be toned down a bit, and perhaps they will be. Unfortunately, anything we do and see will be second and third hand information for a long time, and let's face it videos don't ever give you a true feel for a game.

I am really looking forward to a 2000 man battle somewhere.

As a long time Elder Scrolls gamer, going back to Arena, I for one cannot wait for TESO to come out!  Spring 2014 couldn't come soon enough!  Well, all I can say is from what I've seen, it will be amazing.  The crafting is still somewhat vague, but yes Storm, I would love to bring out crafting like SWG.  I used to make weapons with the finest materials, and had a small business going.  That part was very enjoying to me, since I met many wonderful people in the game.

All that I've read and seen, and comments coming from Fog, this game will be amazing.  One part that interests me is the lore.  We all know playing any of the Elder Scrolls game, there is plenty of it.  Everything from the short stories in the books scattered throughout Tamriel, to the stories we hear from the NPC's, lore is present, and will constantly change, which in turn draws us as players deeper into the game.

I hope they make a collector's edition! :)

Wulfe...

I stated awhile back that I would never, never, ever, NEVER buy another collectors edition.  That was before I knew about ESO and I will now probably eat my words and I hope they are very yummy.

With everything I have seen and read and under Fog's banner I will be heading into ESO with open mind and joyous heart.  From what they have stated and from what Fog got to see - the world is huge and Morigana likes a huge world to explore.  And with the AvAvA that they have described and the ability to spawn into campaigns that your guild is in to join them - I have a feeling we shall see some epic battles there.

All I can say is that I am cautiously optimistic about ESO. There will be a lot of competition around the time ESO launches; business model, developer-community involvement, and just how well they bring the "Skyrim design" to an MMOG will be the things that make or break this game for me. I will definitely give the game a fair shake before I choose whether to not to pay for it.

But let's be honest here. You know it. I know it. As long as they bring the arrow to the knee jokes, we're gonna eat this one up til our stomachs hurt!

I was and still am erring on the side of caution or "not getting my hopes up", more as a personal psychological defensive mechanism.  I withhold judgement until I can see/try for myself.

My first experience with The Elder Scrolls was with Daggerfall and Morrowind, I skipped Oblivion (Boycotted in protest of being a console game ported to PC) at launch but purchased it just prior to Skyrim's launch.  I have always loved the lore of the series and I also love RvR games, so far I haven't been impressed by the video's I've seen and the information I've read over at Tamriel Foundry but I've heard good things about it from people I trust so I'm still on board.  If it's a good game and has lots to offer us as a family then I'll be sticking around for the long haul.  

"All I can say is that I am cautiously optimistic about ESO."

"I was and still am erring on the side of caution or "not getting my hopes up", more as a personal psychological defensive mechanism."

QFT!!  I'm buying the game and going to play it with the guild.  But I've gotten too excited about new MMO's in the past.  And after a CE of SWTOR and GW2, I doubt I'll buy one again.  Maybe a Digital CE, but that's it.

 I have to admit that I'm kind of concerned about the amount of bugs TESO is going to have as well.  Yes I understand that it's a different team working under the guidance of the old team but the old team REALLY does have a bad reputation to be lived down by the new team.  So I guess I would say the best term for me to use would be,  "Worried yet trying to remain optimistic." 

  My optimism comes from the guild. Hoping that come what ever bugs may arise in game, that we as a group over come them with our good nature and comedic senses.  I personally wouldn't be surprised to find an end game dragon wander through the starting town in full glitching, rampaging manner, while blood thirsty clowns throw cream pies of doom every where, in the beginning of TESO.  But as long as I have my friends in the guild to still help me try and see the humor of it, I think I can grin and bear it well enough.

 And if all else fails we can still blame those damn, dirty, filthy, ugly Daggerfalls and Aldmeris!! MAY THEY ALL BURN IN !!!........... oh sorry just trying to gear up the whole faction rivalry some :) ......... "FOR THE NORD!!"

Like Elth, I'm erring on the side of caution and not getting my hopes up.

Of the games I've experienced, Eve Online still struggles with large player numbers after 10 years, Warhammer Online took a full year after release to get most of the RvR bugs worked out, Rift was much the same (but had the good sense to delay any large scale PvP content), and Guild Wars 2 still lags terribly whenever two large forces collide (despite capping map populations in WvW).

The reality is that we (and Zenimax for that matter) just can't know how their system holds up under such stresses until the game is physically subjected to those stresses, which will require a huge public Beta test event to even get close to the numbers needed to attempt to push the limits of their system.

I look forward to seeing what Zenimax can put together though.

P.S. Needs more Dwarfs! Elves running rampant in ESO with 3 separate playable factions, yet still not a Dwarf to be seen anywhere, even 1000 years in the past. Bad enough Guild Wars 2 wiped out their Dwarfs. Bring back Dwarfs to MMOs!!!   ;)

The dwarves of Tamriel were sneaky mer (elves) anyway Dargron, I'll get my Dwarf fix from playing a short, heavy set bearded Nord with a scottish accent and a big axe.

Dwarves are regular sized elves in TES lore. :3

And I will wait before getting this game. Actually to see if we can get the money to buy it and if it works out as expected upon release :3

:3

ahhh - well - I'm not actually worried about bugs - bugs can be annoying but are usually fixed and there are always bugs - always.  But, yes - an over abundance would not be good.  I am far more concerned with server stability, lag, and general game connectivity.   Keep me lag free; connected to the server; and little to know queue time to get into the game and I shall be basically happy.   I can spend the first month just exploring if the world is as big as they say it is.   Heck, it will take me 2 hours to create my character :)

I am displaying more faith in this title than some others since ES has a pretty good rep and I'll just hang on to that for now.

personally wouldn't be surprised to find an end game dragon wander through the starting town in full glitching, rampaging manner, while blood thirsty clowns throw cream pies of doom ever

 

Ahhhh  but those things are what make a game great and remembered .    Like in Warhammer  it was by desgin , however  every now and then a lvl 40 champion chaos demon would spawn in the middle square of the captial city and start killing everyone .

 

  Or oldschool EQ , where you would have a zone filled with lvl 8 to 15 ish mobs and a roaming giant or Griffin that was lvl 35 ish that would spawn and terrorize the zone , west karna , west commons ,  oasis of marr , that had lvl 35 - 37 sand giants, as well as lvl 37 specteres , and lvl 35-37 deepwater gobbys in a zone filled with lvl 12-24 mobs , made it more exciting  questing /killing mobs there and  gave higher lvls a chance to be cool by going and saving the lowbies hehe .

 

 One my favorites was the seafury cyclops that would attack people on the boat in ocean of tears , or the falling thru the boat in eruds crossing and getting eaten by the lvl 35 ish  sharks and having to get a high lvl to get ya corpse back .

RE Fog:

Oh, I'm definitely going to pre-order and try it, but like several others said, I'm not getting my hopes up. I've seen several MMOs promising that ESO is and failing to deliver.

I'm glad to see others in the guild share my concerns... I think it's best to go into something like this with realistic expectations, that way we can just have fun with it. It won't be a major letdown, it'll just be a new setting in which we can run and game and enjoy each other's company. I'm alright with that :-)

 lol @ Dirkdaring. I know what your saying. Some times glitches can be the funnest things in game.  There was a giant in vanilla WoW that was in the southern most part of one of the continents.  Some one figured out that he had no reset point. Which means you could pull the giant any where on the map so long as you stayed in his aggro zone.  The best thing about it was that as soon as the giant left the zone he was in, the game would assume it was dead and spawn another one.  So one day as I was questing outside the Cross roads, when three alliance rangers went running past me.  My first thought was "Huh... that was kind of odd. They just ran past me... didn't even try to kill me." When suddenly I heard a ROOOAR!! from behind me ( scared the crap out of me more then any thing) and  a giant foot crushed my character.  The three Rangers pulled three Giants from half a continent away just to bring them to a Hoard controlled village, to watch people like me freak out. LOL took us forever to kill the giants but honestly looking back it was one of the funnest nights of gaming for me. 

ok haven't been around for awhile but I can put at least some of your fears to rest as I both played it at pax and got to talk to a few of the dev team;

1. it will run on most PCs

2.It looks and plays like skyrim.

3.they heavily hinted that both werewolves and vampires will be available at some point.

that's all I can recall at the moment but ill ask my friend for the note he asked for back I may have some more answers.

@Dirk  Ahhh - the fond memories of EQ.... /shout "Specter train to Docks!"

@Dirk & Oldman... It is memories like those that truly make a game - and as Fog has stated in his video - it is the memories we build that make our games and our family so dang enjoyable.

If I can't 'try before I buy' I won't be coming to ESO.   I've really enjoyed the Elder Scrolls games as desktop games, but nothing I've seen so far convinces me that style of play will be enjoyable for me in an MMO.

I wasn't really considering ESO until Fog announced it'd be the new chapter. To be honest, I'm not sure about the class system. It appears to be ok, but I'm hesitant about it. From what I've read about EQNext's class system and other areas I think I'll enjoy that game much more. Depending on when the two are released I may give both a try, but I don't know. Just have to wait and see I guess.

Being as I am now unemployed, we probably will just just stick with playing FFXIV. We can no longer afford to pay 2 subscriptions for the foreseeable future and can't really afford to purchase 2 new games.

So far it just hasn't really caught my attention and have no real desire to play it from doing research and watching videos on it.

Just a reminder - Please don't talk about testing for ESO.   It is the worse possible time to make conclusions about a game plus the fact that Family Policy is not to talk about testing during betas - and even the stress tests are during the beta. 

First rule about Beta Testing in Gaiscioch - Don't Talk About Testing!

Edited out for my own amusement.

» Edited on: 2013-11-20 17:42:46

Not to worry Trinak... ;)

And I forgot you could do that too...My brain seems to have left the building. All better.

And let's all remember the adage - not every game is for every one.   They just can't make a game to please all of the people and that is why Fog has a check list for Gaiscioch.   I doubt a game ever gets the 100% satisfaction rating.   Since I like to play games I just look for the ones that will entertain me for as long as possible which I can explore and has really good graphics - and then there is the aspect of running with the family... so I do have hopes.

I've seen the checklist mentioned before and from what I gather it's a relatively long and in depth one. Is there a place/link we can see what's on the checklist?

I almost completely forgot the first rule of Gaischioch Beta Fight Club!!!

See this thread for "What makes a Gaiscioch Chapter"... and yes, it is quite extensive.

http://www.gaiscioch.com/tavern/faq/post_60064.html

That checklist covers the Manditory stuff. From there there is a 250+ item list that is a weighted scale based on importance which generates the total score. That one is for elders only as I have run this for 12 years and know what this family "Needs" in relation to what we think we "Want". Last thing I want is people arguing over things they think they need that they actually don't. There's been a lot of times in the past that people have said that a game "Must Have" this or else, and then when they give it to them they don't even use it. What we've done is filtered these down to the things we actually need to be able to run a community our size effectively doing what we enjoy to do.  

I am looking very very forward to ESO!! I have been dealing with family( deaths, illnesses etc) for several months and things are working out very well now and am soooo looking forward to meeting up with my Gaiscioch family once again, I MISS YOU!!!

I recognize I'm a guild newbie, but from what I've seen so far Fog and the leadership have done a lot of homework and are very hopeful about the game. I was also excited to read the latest PC Gamer preview where a writer that I respect and admire basically described it as  much more like Skyrim than an average MMO.

Still worried about the PVP, given that ArenaNet are experts in the field and are struggling a lot with handling zerg vs zerg battles.

The problem Anet is having with zergs is the size of their maps... they are way too small.  You can move from one side of the map to the other in a couple of minutes.  I don't know how many times Fog has said "We have under 2 mins. to take this keep or their zerg will be here!"    Anet tried to control it by changing the middle lake and adding obstacles hoping it would break up the zerg - that didn't work - it added about 5 secs to their travel time and just gave them more control points to roll over.   At this moment I'm not sure I would call them the experts on WvW since there is a way to get it right - but it would require expanding their maps and putting in much harder mobs at control points and in their camps/towers/keeps.  When you can solo a camp and control point - pardon the pun - but what is the "point".  And a group of 10 can roll over a keep lord with absolutely no tactics - and a zerg melts them like butter.

I remember in Warhammer where a group of 5 could hold off a much larger force when the keep was upgraded - just not possible in GW2.  No amount of arrow carts is going to stop a zerg with just 5 defenders.   There was a late night keep defense in WH where 2 of us held off 15 - 20 attackers - and that is because the guards had some muscle.   I see people soloing the guards in front of towers in GW2... sorry - this should not be possible.   There should be no speed buffs in WvW - especially with small maps... OK - going to stop now... but for one thing... I think Anet keeps it that way since they believe people enjoy it - the ease of getting kills-  but the lack of challenge will drive the good players away.

So what I am hoping is that the ESO world is as big as advertised... zergs don't travel well across great distances.  Sun Tzu said about troops traveling great distances, "The stronger will be in front, the jaded ones will fall behind, and on this plan only one-tenth of your army will reach it's destination." 

I agree Morigana.  To me, World vs World is like a fast food burger joint, you get a tasty meal within minutes of ordering, but it's not nutritious and you can't eat it every day of the week without eventually becoming sick.  The reason sentries were added to WvW was to give roamers something to do while they go for the kill, camps were for small groups and towers and keeps for raid size (25+).

I personally think that Champions in WvW should have been the equivalent of a Dungeon boss encounter and the guards should have been Veteran at a minimum, with upgrades boosting them to Elite and Champion.  The Lord room of a Keep should have been a challenging PvE Raid encounter made more challenging by the addition of enemy players from one or more worlds and Stonemist should have been just a more advanced version of this.  People say that they don't want PvE in WvW, but one is nothing without the other, that's what made Warhammer Online so much fun.

I really think Zenimax Online Studios is going in the right direction with the AvA, but I am only going by the information available.  I remember thinking the same about GW2 WvW when all I had was marketing propaganda to go by.  That's not to say WvW isn't fun, it is, but it's like comparing a burger and fries to duck a l'orange

Well I would actually prefer the burger and fries - from a great steak house... never cared for duck :)

But you have it exactly right Elth.   If they would scale the guards based on the the number of enemies in the battlefield and then upscale them based on upgrades purchased - which was a suggestion made during beta ... then it would make a huge difference - there would be no Karma trains on Thursday and Fridays - and almost every day of the week since 10 people couldn't take a keep = and a keep attacked by 50 would have 5 times the guards (when your side had the "outmanned buff") - who were actually as tough as the players.  Taking even a sentry point would be meaningful.   Also do something about the canons, mortars, and oil - they melt and anyone using them dies in seconds - but hey - don't want this turning into what would make GW2 better although if I ever get to make suggestions for ESO - I now have some ideas.  ;)

 Myself, I think the perfect FvFvF would be to take Planetside 2 and give it a DAoC mod.  Then give it a lot of dynamic pve content to battle along the way to bases as well or even place them inside the bases themselves. (by dynamic I mean the npc's scale to the group thats attacking it.) You could easily replace the ground vehicles in Planetside 2 with fantasy based mounts. For example replace the tanks with different variations of war elephants, giant lizard type creatures or large mountable yetis. Replace the aerial vehicles in Planetside 2 with different types of Dragons, Gryphons and Chimeras. (For god sake change the damn aerial controls lol, planetside 2's is horrible imo) In my honest opinion if TESO took some thing like that and dropped it into there game they would pure gold on there hands. 

How is it possible that you just made me miss early period Warhammer PvP

The woke up in Jail opening scene that Elder Scrolls is renowned for is actually a salute to the table top RPGs of old.  I love it to be honest, it is one cliche that I have never gotten sick of and out of all the ES games I've played, Oblivion was my favourite opening scene.

I'm not that fussed on whether the levelling is fast or slow, that really depends on what the game is like at level cap.  Fast levelling is okay by me if they have a plethora of content at level 50, slow levelling is also fine if there is more than a few ways of levelling.  In both cases, it appears that there will be enough content considering the AvA endgame and level 50+ and 50++ zones they are talking about means there is plenty of content to support fast levelling, in addition to have three complete levelling paths (one for each realm) which would support a slow levelling for people that love that kind of thing.

I really hope they don't follow World of Warcraft's example post expansions.  Classic and The Burning Crusade were okay, but even Blizzard has admitted that things got out of hand after that and are doing a full itemisation squish with the next expansion.  The power creep they had initially with Tier 1-3 (Pre-Expansion) was a perfect level of power creep and there was a lot of content available with a variety of pre-tier goals to achieve in addition to the attunements required to reach the PvE endgame.  I'm not going to rattle on about World of Warcraft though, they may have started off in the right direction, but they went way out of whack after the first expansion.  Zenimax seem to be on the ball by identifying what has worked and what hasn't over the past decade of MMO history, lets just hope that they can deliver their vision without the investors/suits influencing and ruining their good work.

I am skeptical for sure. Elder Scrolls MMO? It is my dream. I will die to play it either way. Anyways, the main thing is to curb your expectations. Lower it. Don't expect revolutionary MMO, the one MMO to rule them all.

Coming from SWTOR, it was hyped to insane proportions. For us it was the Star Wars craze and the imagination of the one MMO to conquer everything. A lot of us were expecting SWG features + KOTOR and much more. When I tried beta, I was sourly disappointed. What came was KOTOR online with theme park MMO. It doesn't help that the devs were hyping too, boasting that it would exceed WoW's subscription.

Back to ESO. Don't expect a wildly fantastic MMO. This is essentially somewhat a Elder Scrolls Online as devs has mentioned. Or say perhaps a simplified version of Skyrim Online. ESO is a MMO where you could gather together with your friends in Tamriel and enjoy the lore of ES. It has your typical theme park quests. It will feature 3 faction Alliance Wars - RvR ala DAoC. Considering that Matt Firor and team from Mythic DAoC is in Zenimax Online Studious, I expect that majority of the end game would be the Alliance Wars. But you wonder, what has GW2 not do in WvW that ESO will do better?

Add all of that with monthly subscription fee while GW2 is free? I don't mind paying for a subscription. In fact I prefer it. No hidden costs. No pay to play. No unlocking contents. I pay $15 and I am happy for premium subscription. But what it does is alienates a lot of potential subscribers who have no interest in paying partly due to our recent crop of F2P MMO - GW2, Neverwinter, Path of Exile, Firefall, RIFT and many more. 

I say, Zenimax build a good high quality MMO, and the players will flock. Word will spread and people will pay. But release a buggy and incomplete game, gamers will stay 3-6 months at most. Then it is max exodus. FYI, Dark Brotherhood and Thieves Guild will not be present at launch. Marketing? or Intentional delay for post 1.1 major patch?

Coming from a devoted fan of ES series dating back to Daggerfall, I won't miss out ESO. It will be fun for sure. Any MMO is always great with friends and family. I am just afraid that no MMO will really fully satisfy anyone. Nowadays, we just enjoy the community, have fun while it last and move on. ESO too will go that direction eventually, i.e. F2P.

From what ive discussed with them for their content plans they want players to witness the events surounding the formation of the thieves guild and the dark brotherhood. If its in at launch they cant share that story. Eso takes place earlier than any es adventure to date. We will be playing out the series of events that setup the plot for arena, daggerfall, and morrowind.

Btw elder scroll collection on sale for 30 bucks on amazon today. All the games and expansions except battlespire and redguard included.

I have the collection sitting on my desk. Really great deal. Now i just have to finish 5 other games on my list, but when i do I'm going to try and do a main story play through of morrowind through skyrim. Probably wont happen because I'm too easily distracted and end up exploring way too much, but I'm going to try. 

I was pretty skeptical about ESO as well. Honestly I still am, but if Fog believes in the Devs then I'll give them the benefit of the doubt, and give it a shot when it comes out.

I just dont like the monthly fee bit. Ive spent 30 maybe 40 bucks between my wife and my account in over a year of playing guild wars 2. Justifying that 15$ per month is going to be hard, especially if my wife wants to play too. A single month will cost pretty much what a year costed me in GW2.

Also I'm not sure my wife will want to give up her GW2 characters. Its the first MMO shes really attached to, but like me we cant really play both, we barely have time for just one. I'm rambling. Either way it'll be interesting, I really do hope for the best though.

they want players to witness the events surounding the formation of the thieves guild and the dark brotherhood. If its in at launch they cant share that story.

This idea tickles me in ways I haven't been tickled since killing the Priest of Discord the first time.

Thats the beauty of it Gideon, she doesnt have too. We will be in both games and if budgets are tight just play GW2. She doesnt have to give up her characters. Nothing stops you from playing both if thats what your heart desires. :)

As Fog stated - nothing stops you from playing both - or just one... I plan on playing both... fortunately or unfortunately depending on your point of view (and depending on the day of the week I have had both) I have enough time for two and get bored with just one game pretty quick - and that is why I will play both.  I plan on keeping up with WvWvW in GW2 and then ESO in all of it's glory - PvE and AvA.  (I have actually had 3 games going at one time in the past - I'm bad - but I'm retired).

The only thing spending $15 a month on ESO does - is give less money to GW2 since I won't be spending in their gem store anymore.

But if ESO can keep their stories going - like this Thieves Guild - Fog mentioned - then I will want to see that unfold and be part of it.  I love stories in MMO's.

I am cautiously optimistic about ESO just as I am with any new MMO. I'll believe the game when I have a chance to try it for myself. If it comes down to me being invited into a beta test, I'll provide feedback and form an opinion on whether to play at launch once the game is much closer to the launch version and in a more complete state.

I've always loved the Elder Scrolls franchise (I usually always play an Altmer or Bosmer so that could be problematic with The Ebonheart Pact) so I really would like to see an MMO version of the series work.

I'm really interested in ESO's implementation of WvW.  I'm playing through Skyrim now just to a get a feel for the story and  gameplay. The first for me.

 I`m playing skyrim again so i can get used to the werid controls again , and the werid offset 3rd person view lol .

If they can make it feel like PvP matters and has a point, while at the same time creating a rich world worth exploring, I think it will be quite good. The team seems to have been chosen for just that.

The only thing I'm worried about at present is the maximum guild size of 300 people.

Fog already countered the worry on the guild size - I'll see if I can find his statement on that - but it was something like 1000 or more now - thet the 300 quote from a dev was from very early on.   If it was limited to 300 Fog wouldn't be endorsing it as a chapter - that would be worse than GW2 and he hates their limit.

*Can't find that post where Fog stated it - but a 300 limit would let it make our checklist - so I know it was bumped way up from that - maybe Fog will hop in and reiterate it.

I'd love to see a confirmed much larger guild size. The biggest I've seen is an unconfirmed report of 500, which is still small enough for concern.

Guild sizes have been confirmed as much larger than 500 people. I personally contacted them to confim. The statement given in the interview was innacurate. They are aiming to have them as large as possible. The really good news is custom chat channels are already in existance as of oct 2012. So worst case scenario we use an alliance chat channel as a bridge like we did in warhammer.

Awesome. Thanks, Fog!

  great that`s one of the things i liked in warhammer was alliance chat , sure we can create chat groups and all be on vent / raidcall etc but also nice to have built in alliance chat feature for talking to everyone online  and not if they just happen to be in  raidcall or in the private chat group .

  now if they`ll  change the 3rd person view to be centerned on the toon instead of off to the left ha ha .   also odd that every single archtype uses magic   and if you don`t you`ll be gimping yourself  ,  atleast the devs said in that podcast .

Yeah, that off-center character in 3rd person is very disorienting.

Thanks Fog!

The great thing about alliance chat is when an alliance guild is in need of help, or running an event, or needs anything really - we can see it and go help.  Use to love the "call to arms" we would get.

I think what is really holding me up is the conversion from a regular elder scrolls game to an MMO. I like the class system, but there was so many more possibilities in Skyrim or Oblivion. While I can't say much to this, from what I've seen it adds the theme park quest line common in most MMO's. If you are level X you go to X zone and follow along those quests until you get to Y level and go to Y zone. I enjoyed being able to go anywhere in Skyrim/Oblivion and start those quests as well as see some persistent changes from some of those quests. 

Perhaps I'm just getting burned out. I've jumped from WoW to Rift to SWTOR (small stint in GW2 here) to FF14 ARR and just having troubles getting into the game like I used to when I played EQ or SWG or WoW. I did enjoy Rift quite a bit so perhaps I'll go back to that, don't know. I do hope that ESO or EQNext can be "the one" game for me and wife, but I've become more cautious/skeptical in recent months. 

 yep sadly every MMO released since 2004 uses the same boreing theme park quest leveling treadmill, while holding your hand all the way to endgame leading you  from quest hub to quest hub to tell you where to go and what to kill etc

 then you run a couple hundred yards up the road  to the lvl 7-10 zone rinse repeat till 10 then run up the road again to the  11-14 quest hub etc /yawn .

 I miss sandbox  games  , hope ESO  isn`t the same  quest system as that is boreing .  

I was more skeptical in the beginning, but today after reading a bit more and seeing more recent gameplays, I believe that this will be a game that will at least entertain me for a few months.

I have some concerns though:

PvP: Will their server really be able to handle the amount of people they want to? In a game where players need to aim for their attacks, any sync issues or skill lags will hurt even more than in GW2, for example.

Classes and the freedom of skill/armor choices: This reminds me of Star Wars Galaxies to some extent. We could choose skill lines from any discipline we want and have a lot of different possibilities, but in the end we would see a bunch of FOTM builds because they were more effective.

Business Model: This might be my greatest concern, at least on the long run. I have no problem at all paying a monthly subscription for a game that I like, but if the game for whatever reason doesn’t meet their commercial ambitions, it will most likely become a hybrid of f2p/p2p. The problem with this hybrid system is that the developers start to create inconveniences or difficulties in order to sell conveniences. They will try to milk extra money even from subscribers. I have seen this closely in Lotro and SWTOR (whose f2p system is completely retarded in my opinion.)

But hopefully everything will be alright and we will have a solid MMO to play :).

Wait, so this time I wasn't the voice of skepticism and ... well whatever other negative things I've been accused of?  Wow, I must be becoming more apathetic towards gaming than I've thought.

Unfortunately, I can't give my opinion at this time.  Literally.  For several reasons: NDA; little to no play time (I had a sick, dying pet that was priority of focus) and ... its just too bloody early to judge the game.

Never judge a game in CBT.  Period.  You can give feedback and concerns to the developers, but never assume that what content and mechanics that you experience in CBT is going to be release quality, if even the same.

I'm waiting until OBT to form my opinion with this game, positives and/or negatives.  After ~72 hours of play, I'll be able to form a solid and reliable opinion of whether the game is a "buy at release" or a "wait for the expansion".  It could also be a "regret I bought it", though.  Sadly I have a password file full of game log-ins of that type.

I do worry about this sporadic 48 hour "focus" testing.  Good games are not made with once/twice a month, 48 hour play-testing.  (History backs me on this and believe me, I have some stories.)

  yep normaly i`d say you are right Sekk , sadly  i beta tested SWTOR  and everytghing i said about the game was still in when they went to obt and at launch and as i predicted it went F2p within what 8 months lol .

  while sometimes stuff that is in beta do change etc based on tester feedback , the majority of the time what i see is they  have their vision for the game , and when testers  don`t like their vision , clearly the testers are wrong and they normaly stay with their vision then after launch go ooooosht  when people start bailing  ha ha .

What was really sad for me about SWTOR when it went F2P was how I felt cheated as a subscriber. I stayed on as a subscriber for awhile, but eventually it just seemed sad that I couldn't get the things I wanted unless I paid extra for them on top of my subscription fee. It had other things I didn't like, but that one was towards the top of my list.

 I agree with you guys. Really need to wait till OBT to start getting some real concerns.  That being said. After you skim through this topic as well as a few others you start to see a very clear pattern, in relation to peoples concerns. Maybe because this pattern seems to be repeating itself throughout a large portion of mmo's these days. So I can see why mmo players in general are very skeptical about any mmo getting ready to come out. It almost seems like the industry has gotten an EA mentality. Not at all interested in knocking WoW off it's throne but rather "What can we hype up and make that will clear the shelves and line our pockets for a year. Then we'll throw it to some really badly managed free to play in order to soak a few more suckers."  Sorry but I really see EA as the dark empire in the gaming world lol. 

 It's hard not to be skeptical considering what's come out in the past five years.  To be honest I thought GW2 was finally going to do it. Much to my dismay they fell flat.  They ended up missing the mark for a lot of us, though I understand many of you still play GW2. Many more of us no longer play and are hungrily looking to sink our teeth into some thing that we can finally devour over the course of many years.  I would love to be able to say " I can't believe I've been playing this for four years." Sadly for me and it seems like many others here we have not been able to say that for years.  And every time it seems like our "big rock candy mountain." of mmo's has finally arrived, six months later we're looking for another game. 

So I certainly understand the skepticism, but who knows guys. TESO might finally give us a good new home.  Some place we can all get together and play for many years to come.  

Trinak hit the nail on the had about how SWTOR's F2P hurt the subscribers. However, I have to wonder why we all still act surprised that it went F2P around the 1-year mark. Looking back on the evidence, it seems pretty apparent that was the game exec's plan from well before launch.

I've been watching the online complaining about ESO pretty closely, and it falls into three main types:

1) Complaints about races being locked to one faction. This one seems to be the most common, and mostly comes from folks saying it's not Elder-Scrollsy enough.

2) Complaints about it being a "themepark" with level-based adventure areas. This one seems to be the second most common, and also comes mostly from ES purist types. This is sometimes also said by WoW-haters, who call everything a WoW-clone even when it isn't true (and ESO is not a WoW-clone).

3) There's too much focus in the marketing on PvP. This comes from ESO purists who want to explore Cyrodiil w/o PvP, folks who know they don't usually like PvP, and folks who think they won't like PvP.

These aren't exactly the usual complaints around MMOs. #2 is sort of the usual, except that it's usually couched in terms of "freedom of exploration" as experienced in the ES series.

I'm usually skeptical, but I have confidence in Matt Firor and his team to deliver a game that will blow us away. Dark Age of Camelot, pre-Trials of Atlantis, was unequalled, and he was the guy directly responsible for it.

Here are just some more of my thoughts regarding the complaints that Malthol brought up - since I have seen them also (not that I think Malthol shares those complaints - he just listed them.)

Races locked to factions...

Well to me this makes since - it always has.  It is what drives good PvP (RvR) since it sets the stage.  Not being ES enough while true - their SP games didn't involve PvP but there was justification for the races to hate (or at least dislike) each other.  If they are going to have RvR then they have to set this stage so that it makes some kind of sense.  I think they did the best they could - and yes the game needs PvP for it to be successful - sorry it does - it opens up the marketplace to about 50% more gamers.  Just as with GW2 there will be people who will never leave this arena and there will be those that never venture into it.  But just last night I heard one of our members say "I never liked PvP until I joined the family in GW2 and saw all the strategy that goes on behind it - I just love that"  or something similar.   I never liked PvP until I joined the family in WarhammerOL and ran with Fog - and now I love it - it is my favorite family event.

Theme Park based -

Well this has been around since EQ (WOW didn't invent it) and is still a formula that works.  Some people won't like it but since it is a formula that works for the majority of players then it will be used.   You can still adventure on your own - but if there was just a total randomness of mobs - then many players wouldn't like it. "I keep getting killed by this level 50 giant and I'm only level 5 - wth"  One of my favorite things about doing PvE is the fact that I can become part of a story - an Epic event - as if I am a character in a novel or a movie - and my actions mean something (rather they really do or not) by how the story evolves and how well it is written.  This is how things transpire in most SP games with a RP aspect.  This is how the story part goes in an MMORPG - and if ESO does it right - then that is the same reason your race will be part of a faction - and fight the other factions. 

My biggest complaint (and one you hear often from other MMORPG fans) is that the developers stop writing and interjecting stories in the quests at a certain point.  They quit giving me my "theme" park.  EQ still had an epic quest line at level 50.   When WOW first started there were numerous complaints about what happened to the story line quest after level 20?  AOC had the same issue... the first set of class quests that had a great story behind them - faded away and players wanted more.  I have no idea if they ever added more since I finished several classes and then since  all the good story writing just went "poof" I left 6 months after launch.  Really, one of the reason MMORPG's lose a lot of subscribers after the first 6 months is there is no "story" left to take part of.  Most players can't make their own RPG - if you buy an MMORPG - you want "theme park".  You want the story.  A "Theme Park" gives you the story.

There's too much focus PvP...

Again - they need this to survive long term and if it is "good to great" PvP this will keep it around for a long time.  Developers just can't add enough PvE content to keep players content in the "theme park" I mentioned above.  It isn't possible.   That is why you see a increase in subscribers after an expansion update and a gradual decline a few weeks after the expansion launch.  Players liked the game but had burnt through the PvE content.  Some players take 3 weeks - some take 6 months.  But think about it... most PvE content is nothing more than a new SP game's worth of content.  Depending the the game I can finish it in 3 weeks to 3 months unless it has great replay ability - Like the first Dragon Age.  Once the PvE players do all the new content - they leave again waiting for the next expansions.  It is a good core base of PvP people that can keep a game going in between those expansions.  Those players want new armor, weapons, food buffs, etc - which keep a core base of PvE players around since they go farming and dungeon runs.

There is a fine balance that devs must maintain to keep a game going.  Without PvP they will feel "rushed" to meet the "need" to add PvE content and then you will get some not so good expansions as we all remember (or at least us old people) in EQ which can actually drive players away when they "flop".  With PvP in the game - they soften the edge on the line they must walk in the attempt to keep a player base and keep it financially viable.

In closing...

I will say that I tend to go out on limbs to support games... Vanguard, AOC, Warhammer OL, SW:TOR, TSW -  and I have concluded that I will always go out on those limbs and that no tree is too big since I am filled with wonder at the prospect of a new land to make a path in.   What is any adventure without some risk.  There is a thrill seeker in all of us - whether it is in real life or a digital world.  Don't miss an adventure because of fear of the unknown... go explore - take a step on a path that you haven't travelled.   Be an adventurer!  It is the only way you will know for sure if the game is right for you or not - there is no one that can decide that for you - but you.

ps.  Financial reasons are a totally different aspect and if you don't like their financial model I won't debate that point.  A budget is a budget and we all have to stay within them.

Regarding races being faction locked. Remember ESO takes place in the time period before all other elder scrolls games. In this time period the throne was up for grabs and the 3 factions fight for power in a civil war. This war eventually leads to Talos uniting the realms and eventually becoming a demigod. We will be playing the turn of events that lead up to that point in elder scrolls history. After Talos's rise to power the walls between the races fall.

That's the kind of stuff I really hope the devs focus on with ESO, Fog. It would be so cool to play a game that evolved and changed - permanently - and that players had a real affect on. I know we can't change the outcome of the overarching story lines considering thousands of years of historical lore are already set, but if each update and patch is evolving the world towards the story lines we know and love, that will be awesome.

As with the race locks, it would be so easy for them to just add a system that allows races to defect from their "alliance" and switch to another. EQ2 had a quest for that back in the day. It was sorta long and dramatic, but it made seeing a dark elf among the "good " folks a rare but "wow, you are dedicated to the cause" moments.

   Played EQ for about 6 years  don`t recall it being a Themepark , as far as the if you want to buy a MMORPG you want a Themepark ,  I don`t   ,  that`s what i hated about WOW, Rift, Aion,  LOTRO , SWTOR  they were nothing but hand holding quest leveling treadmills  .

sure EQ had zones  where mobs were a certain level with a few wayyyy  to high for the zone they were in ,  Specs in oasis  is a example  but thats not what call a themepark  , boring quest lvl system that WOW started that every game since uses  .

 sadly most of the games  give almost no exp from killing mobs but you get all the exp from turning in a silly  quest so game becomes a  quest grind just to level. like they are afraid if they don`t tell you where to go and what to do people won`t know how to level up and they might not see everything lol .

 gone are the days of doing quests for a rare item ,  now you just grind quest  to level . very linear gameplay sadly this is the gold standard today .

  Woot ding lvl 5  run  a few hunfred yards up the road to the lvl 5-10 quest hub  gather all the kill and fed X  quest  , finish those ding 10 run up the road to the lvl 10-15 quest hub  /yawn   how do people like that ?  game tells you where to go what to do then leads you around from quest hub to quest hub all the way to end game holding your hand thru the whole game .  like riding the rails  thru the game very limited in what choices you have  for gameplay .

for those that aren`t sure of the difference  read this comparsion ,  http://www.tentonhammer.com/features/opinions/sandbox-mmos-vs-theme-park-mmos

 Maybe one day a game will blend  sandbox gameplay with a dash of themepark  that should be a good game , most just make a boring themepark .   

» Edited on: 2013-12-16 14:46:18

But see Dirk... I happen to agree with the post directly after the article

"@Dalmarus - don't confuse "open world" with "sandbox". EverQuest was an Open World, but not a sandbox.

Sandboxes are defined by the player's ability to have a meaningful, persistent effect on the game world. Building (and destroying) major structures, affecting the territorial boundaries of factions - especially if those factions are player-run, not NPCs."

That is why I call EQ a theme park - it may have been an "open" theme park, but to me and others it was still a theme park, not a sand box.  It did guide you even if you chose not to follow the path - they set a path in place.  As far as that goes other games that are still theme park allow the same open world exploration - you just can't accomplish anything once you get there.  To me - that is guidance, "You shouldn't be here - die low level character in one shot - Bamm!"  (You may now respawn).  

But I do agree - if there could be a blend of sandbox - where the players can truly affect the world around them on a long term basis - or even permanently along with some theme park attributes - then it would be a much better game.

I like what was stated in the Alpha Review about ESO letting us destroy walls and doors in their RvRvR and that once you take over the tower or castle you need to build back up the defenses - it doesn't magically go "poof" with brand new walls and gates.  What you destroyed you must rebuild.  This could be very strategic in the long run.   You might want to concentrate on a small area if you are low on supplies instead of tearing down every wall possible.  Anyway - it's a start.

 Yikes! Dalmarus doesn't paint a very kind view, financially, for TESO does he lol. $100-$200 million? Wow that's a lot of money.  It's a good article, thanks for sharing Dirkdaring. And to think from what he says TESO is going to be one of the last of it's kind is in a way kind of sad. To see an era come to an end. But who knows. Maybe it's for the better. 

 I myself am sitting on the fence a bit on the matter of sandbox verses theme park.  I really fell in love with mmo's starting with WoW.  So for me that's the good old days. Back then though it wasn't so much a kiddy land of theme park mmo's. Allow me to explain the "kiddy land theme park," part of my statement. Now in WoW when you get a quest, the map shows you exactly where to go. You literally have no guess work at all. You don't even need to read the quests. Just click "accept" and look at your map. Your little quest overview in the upper right hand of your screen tells you how many of what you need. Just follow the arrow on your minimap, gather / kill what you need and go back to collect your reward. The game holds your hand the entire way. However it wasn't always like that. In fact up until the burning crusade it wasn't at all like that. You got the quest and had to read the quest in order to have an idea where you had to go.  Even then you ended up asking guildies a lot if they knew where you had to go some times.  Yes it was a theme park but it was a much harder theme park back in the day.  But even then me and my friends we're always pushing that theme park boundary. My first character in WoW a level 20 Tauren Warrior had made it all the way to Stormwind to try and kill some of those Alliance player scum!! ( lol sorry no offence to people whom may have played as an Alliance. Just back then it was a real rivalry between the factions.) My level 20 should have never been able to make to Stormwind but still me and my four friends managed to actually get there. So yes it was indeed a theme park but a lot of people including myself played it almost like a sandbox. 

 Which I suppose is more of an argument FOR a sandbox, rather then for a theme park mmo.  My point I suppose was that it wasn't so much on rails back during vanilla. Yes it was indeed a theme park but you had to find the rail. No one showed you it. Which is why for so many WoW players they tend to refer to vanilla WoW as being the golden years of the game.  When burning crusade came out, also came out a lot of player created addons.  Several of them being the model of which is built into the game today. Just follow the arrow and your done. Focus shifted from adventure to just how fast you could get to level 70.  Then it really became a theme park on rails and yes it quickly began to lose it's fun facter.  

 A little side topic, not to distract from the original topic of this discussion..... though I suppose that's kind of already happen lol.  A few have mentioned that EQ was a sandbox.  Does that mean EQN is going to be a sandbox? I myself have never played any of the EQ so I really don't know the game. But I've been eyeing EQN a bit and was just wondering if you guys knew any thing about it. 

 :EDIT: slow typer. Morigana kind of answered my last question there. But left me with another. So EQN might a be a sandbox/ themepark?

  No clue Jenk  I like to think the future is in a Sandbox/Themepark  hybrid   , the company that can blend the two into a AAA  MMO  will truly be the wow killer .

 And yep I played WOw at launch  vanilla WoW  even tho it was  quest leveling system was better then how you say it is now  half the fun of doing a quest is figureing it out not being shown where to go .

I totally agree with Vanilla WOW (PvP was even better - we made our own battlefields) - and even EQ - they didn't hold your hand to guide you to the quest - they gave you an idea and then you had to explore to find things and follow the clues.  Sure if you had problems you could ask your guild or search the internet - but there weren't any bright lights or shiny arrows on you map. 

I am hoping with my fingers and toes crossed that ESO does a great job on exploration as I know they have a rep for that.

I can definitely agree with you on that last point Dirk.  I remember when quest helpers first started appearing with mods and when they first appeared as launch standard, as much as a convenience as they are, they are detrimental to the whole RPG genre.  I feel the same about fast travel and daily tasks/quests.  I really do miss open world questing with actual text to read and NPCs to interact with that give you the option of helping or ignoring.  Too many games these days are spoon feeding everything on your GUI and your map, so much that you are no longer playing a game in an immersive world, but checking off a list of chores and following sparkling or bright icons on a GUI and a map without a second thought as to why.

 @ Morigana: LOL omg I remember fighting in Tarren Mill and Southshore for hours at a time.  Alliance and Horde just going at it.  Having the guild that I belonged to at the time call out in guild chat "Get to Tarren Mills now!! We're getting over run by the Alliance!!" Or any number of the small little villages scattered across WoW.  Didn't matter what I was doing at the time,  me and my friends would drop it and get to Tarren Mill.  You felt like a hero riding in and calling out in yell chat "For the Horde!!"  LOL wow that brings back some great memories.  Man those were the days.  Not like either side could actually hold either town but it sure was fun to try.  Imagine if we had a map, like GW2 has now, back then aye?  For the record I was horrible at PvP... lol hell I still am. I died far more times then I cared to count.  Yet it was all so much fun. 

 I missed out completely on the EQ experience.  Kind of bummed about that. But.. oh well C' est la vie? 

 On a bright side I started to roam through some of the other articles from Dalmarus on the website that Dirkdaring gave earlier.  Thanks again Dirk. I found this article by him listing TESO as number two of the top six sandbox mmo's to watch for in 2014. 

http://www.tentonhammer.com/features/opinions/2014-top-6-mmos

It also listed EQN as number one. So who knows maybe I can catch the EQ experience this time around as well as play along with the family in TESO. Sort of a "have my cake and get to eat it too." type thing lol. 

Odd list. ESO isn't really a sandbox from everything I've seen. Sure Cyrodiil will be dynamic as conquests happen, but that's not really the same thing. (Note, I'm not denigrating ESO, it's the game I've been most excited about in years). EQN has highlighted some sandbox elements, but there's so little known about it so far and there's almost no chance it will see a 2014 launch (Landmark will hit beta in 2014, but that's a long way from actual EQN).

@OldManJenkinz I agree. I'll probably get ESO to play with Gaiscioch, but try EQN when it comes out to see if I like it. With the features that EQN has discussed so far I am very excited about that game. I just hope they can actually deliver on what they are saying and get all the systems to work together.

Different games appeal to different tastes.  ESO will not please everyone, but it sounds like they're putting together a solid game with lots to offer.

Beyond that, we'll all probably change our minds a few times during the launch phase as we explore.  That's part of the fun.  Then they'll drop a major patch a few months in and some will love it and some complain.

Most important is that it seems a good fit for our family so we can continue to play together.

I would be wary of any MMO developer that is calling their game a Sandbox.  Minecraft is a sandbox, Gary's mod is a sandbox, I have never seen a triple A MMO sandbox. SWG/EvE Online are still open world themeparks in my opinion.  Unless you can physically and permanently change the landscape or outcome of the world it will never be a sandbox.  A true sandbox MMO would mean that the resources would be finite, eventually the world would be strip-mined and one or more player factions would hold all the resources.  Imagine trying to craft a sword or repair a keep when a power guild has hoarded all the Iron and Hardwood in the world.  How boring would it be to play in a fantasy world completely devoid of tree's because the crafters and gatherers guild didn't think to plant more trees before they chopped them all down.

I have more trepidation about EQN than I do over ESO - and it is since EQN has already promised so much right up front.  I worry about the graphics - to be able to accomplish what they promise I fear it will be a few steps above Minecraft - and maybe some folks will be ok with that - but I am a graphics snob.  Took me a few years to play WOW (and only then because friends begged me to) because of the cartoony nature of their graphics. 

But as I said before - most games get a shot from me - it is the only way I'll truly know if I like it or not.

@ Elth - that would be so funny yet quite sad.... "Who was suppose to plant the trees?  What do you mean he quit the guild?  %$@^&*@ - we just lost the south keep due to no $#%^&*# wood for repairs!!!"  

funny about the planting trees , in Archage  you can alter the actual map by changing the shape of the land and plant and grow trees, actual farms etc , no two servers will be the same  build entire villages , cities etc ,

I think that definition of sandbox is too stringent. SWG (pre-NGE) & EvE are sandboxes, because the players create their content w/in the context of the world. Besides, even if resources in a world were finite, it should take millennia to strip it bare.

I am extremily skeptical about TESO for two reasons.

- The graphical engine of the game looks heavy from all that i seen from the game so far. This can have a terrible effect on PvP.

- From what i seen on videos the group gameplay seems lacking. It appears to have a similar problem to GW2, where everyone does their own thing and it matters very little to the group. 

I really want to play a dungeon or some other form of group content in this game to see how it behaves. Mind you that i like the trinity and tend to prefer games that have it. 

Nevertheless i will buy the game and play it, at least for awhile. 

Matuk said: "I really want to play a dungeon or some other form of group content in this game to see how it behaves. Mind you that i like the trinity and tend to prefer games that have it. "

This. So much this. Even if the siege pvp is over-the-top fun, without bunches of trinity-based group dungeons, this game will not last long for me and mine. Just like GW2... man those dungeons sucked.

@Matuk with proper culling of spell effects and unnecessary accessories and details they can optimize the engine quite a bit. Also with their cloud style architecture it can share the load across many servers to keep it running smoothly. If anyone can do it the team that pioneered rvr with daoc, the rvr team from war and the server engineering team from eve online should be able to keep this beast running smooth. All I can say is wait till you get some hands on time then most of the concerns in this whole thread become nonissues. A whole lot of worrying over nothing.

I'm w/ Fog on this. Most of the things folks complain about are how the game isn't the game they would've made, rather than enjoying it for what it is. Experiencing it, w/ a willingness to accept what type of game it is, makes for a very enjoyable experience.

 I'm mostly skeptical about the skepticism in relation to the skeptical nature of the over all skeptical posts in this thread about being skeptical. Secondly the sheer amount of skeptical skepticism in response to the skepticism being skepticized about truly makes me skeptical about this whole skeptical situation.  ( disclaimer: upper respiratory infection thus was under a tremendous amount of medication at the time of writing this post.)  

There's been so many over-hyped MMO's in the past that I would say being skeptical is my default position until being proved otherwise.  I'm more than willing to give it a fair chance and see if it turns out well though.

@Stockade (first - like that name) I can totally agree with your statement.  

@Oldman - all skeptical skepticism aside I do find it hard to be skeptical of the skeptical based on Stockade's "skeptical stance first" position although I am skeptically optimistic - in a redundant way ... or not ;)

@Aalwein Yeah, Guild Wars 2 kind of died in my eyes because of their dungeon system.

@Foghladha and Malthol i am crossing my fingers that this game will does not have any issues like the ones mentioned. I been dying to play a very good MMO for quite some time. But lately all the recent MMO releases disappointed me somehow. I even started to think if i did not grow bored of MMOs in general. 

TESO seems to be doing alot of things right, and with that i hope we have a great game in front of us.

@ Morigana ( lol ) I see your point however, being so skeptical about the skepticism in general tends to only lead to a skeptical out come at best....... lol sorry I'm skepticized out. This cough syrup with codeine in it has dropped my IQ by at least 80 points. (yes I know that comment leaves me wide open lol, it's okay I can take it.) 

@Matuk  I can sympathize. I really can. As of late I've gone back to the old but great mmo's because I cannot seem to find a good new one at all. I figured I missed out on the whole EQ experience so I've started playing EQ 2 ftp and bought the silver membership. (meh whats a one time payment of $5 aye?) Sadly it's turning out to be the best mmo I've played a very long time lol.

 But don't lose hope. Honestly every thing I've heard about TESO so far makes it sound like it's going to be really cool.  So yes given whats come out in the past five years I understand the skepticism but it's looking like a really good team this time around.  You seem to understand that already just trying to offer some encouragement.

I'm hopeful that I'll have a solid mmo to play for a few years rather than a few months. However, I'm going into the game open minded with no expectations. 

@Velad I'm with you hoping this game will hold my attention for a few years.  

I am am most hopeful that the PvP will be  fun.

Just wanted to comment on something Sekk mentioned above...

"I do worry about this sporadic 48 hour "focus" testing.  Good games are not made with once/twice a month, 48 hour play-testing."

If you read through all of their articles you will realize that they aren't just beta testing for sporadic 48 hour intervals (wherever that came from - not sure)- they have a corps set of testers and when they do the 48 hr. (which was in their release article) invites they are actually stress testing the changes they have made to systems - see the quote...

"we’ve been in beta testing for about a year now, leading up to our most recent test in late November where we had over 300,000 people in the game over a 48 hour period."

That was stated in the release announcement.   It is actually one of the first games that I know that does sporadic stress tests though out testing in lieu of during the last month for a week or two prior to their launch.  I mean really - 300,000 people in the game over 48 hours... I think that's great - that was 5 months prior to release - they sent out 300,000 invites for a weekend of testing!!!   And according to Fog's email with them wanting to test out the guild system sometime in January (we have over 1000 signed up now for interest in ESO) I think they are providing an interesting concept behind their testing.  Hopefully bugs that are hit hard by "large numbers"  of players will be worked out - which is the cause of many crashes.  A stable game is my biggest concern during the first few months.  We usually break the guild system in the first few weeks - now we have a chance to break it during testing :)

I would be wary of any MMO developer that is calling their game a Sandbox.  Minecraft is a sandbox, Gary's mod is a sandbox, I have never seen a triple A MMO sandbox. SWG/EvE Online are still open world themeparks in my opinion.  Unless you can physically and permanently change the landscape or outcome of the world it will never be a sandbox.  A true sandbox MMO would mean that the resources would be finite, eventually the world would be strip-mined and one or more player factions would hold all the resources.  Imagine trying to craft a sword or repair a keep when a power guild has hoarded all the Iron and Hardwood in the world.  How boring would it be to play in a fantasy world completely devoid of tree's because the crafters and gatherers guild didn't think to plant more trees before they chopped them all down.

That sums it up best for me.  I am eager to be proven wrong, but I am certain, without even having played beta, that whatever this game is will not be a "sandbox".   

I like GW2 a lot.  It's one of the best MMO's available.  But when I go back and watch the old Guild Wars 2 Manifesto I feel completely disappointed and I don't want to log in again.  Publishers don't do their games any long term favors by promoting unrealistic expectations ahead of time.

I'm right there with you Kale. Although I still log into Guild Wars 2, it is a great game, but my heart isn't in it any more. 

LordMelchom - ZeniMax has stated that there will be a "justice system" put into place sometime soon after release to punish those caught committing crimes.  There will also be a Thieve's Guild and I think I heard something about a Dark Brotherhood too, but these will also not be in the game at release.  The Mage's Guild and the Fighter's Guild will be in at release.

I have been so disappointed with games I though were going to be THE ONE to supplant DAOC. None have.After 12 years(on and off) of DAOC I've had enough(my wife still plays it). I don't have a good feeling about Elder Scrolls(I'm playing SKYRIM atm). I have to say I'm not too excited about classes and skill tree from what I know.

Net net.I really hope this is the clear successor to DAOC.I'll just have to wait and see what the game is actually all about.Alliance vs alliance warfare is what drives my interest.

Shadanwolf - I'm exactly like you.  I have played a lot of MMO's.  DAOC was my first, and by far the best.  From what I have heard about ESO, the PvP is almost exactly like that of DAOC.  It's even designed by the same person who did DAOC.  Here are the similarities:

- 3 factions

- Massive open world RvR zone that never resets nor operates on a timer

- Keeps, towers, bridges and other structures to defend and siege

- The ability to operate siege equipment like rams, ballistas, trebuchets, etc.

- Each faction owns a relic (in the form of an Elder Scroll) that can be captured by the opposing factions for alliance wide bonuses

- PvP skill lines that increase the more you PvP

- Realm points (called alliance points) for killing other players, taking keeps, doing PvP quests, etc.

In addition, you can even be crowned Emperor if you take all the keeps surrounding the capitol and are the highest ranked player at the time.  This gives you yet another skill line (which you never lose), as well as a special armor set.

I have been disappointed so many times in so many MMO's, that I swore never to play one again until I saw the description of PvP in ESO.  It really looks like a company FINALLY just copied the DAOC RvR model without trying to muck with it.

» Edited on: 2014-01-06 17:31:54

Man, Vanilla WoW. I remember rolling my undead warrior inspired by Indalamar and his landmark video. Way back in Open Beta. You gotta love those days. Then I remember reading about a game called Dawn by Glitchless. Vaporware at it's finest. 14 years later it is still in production... lol. That is a true Sandbox... it would be the greatest game to ever come out if it ever did. Link to the website below...

From my reading and research I think ESO is going to be as close to an ES game as you can get in an MMO. Yes there are differences, but remember an MMO is real time, unpausable gameplay. Traditional ES Games are not. You can pause, drink 20 health pots, switch weapons, change armor, etc... all mid fight. That is just not going to happen in an MMO game.

http://www.glitchless.com/dawnfaq.html

Dawn... lolz. I remember when the news about that game first released. Mortal Online is close in spirit to Dawn.

In the single player games, NPC's could not respawn after you or anything else killed them.  It cannot work that in a multiplayer game.  You are "a player", not "the player".   "A player" cannot be allowed to have a permanent, scarring effect on the world.  

I think this will be the most "living world" of any MMO I've seen yet. The ability to have a direct impact on the world by questing (at least so far as your character perceives it) is a big part of that.

played it at pax and while I only got about 20 mins with it its made me a believer and got me to preorder. everything ran smoothly and progression seemed unique yet fun.   wish I could help with the beta but my work schedule is just hell right now:(

A summary of the beta weekendby Kevin VanOrd. Quite a good read.

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/the-elder-scrolls-online-trapped-between-worlds/1100-6417556/

I'd just like to draw some attention to the fact that the article is written off an experience in Beta. Which means it's not really a genuine playing experience ie. if you are beta testing you should be (and hopefully those in beta tests ARE) focused on whatever it is the devs have asked you to focus on. This can take away from aspects that the author is talking about, such as social ones. There is a restricted player base in betas as well, and you are not necessarily even playing on the most current version of a game. It is a test environment, and just like any other kind of test environment there are aspects that are not going to reflect reality.

Part of the reason you won't see all players at once could be because of the nature of the servers they're using, I think. Much like GW2 didn't have everyone being able to be seen at launch.

I think the point behind making any game an online one is the opportunity it presents of being a part of a community, and being able to play with your friends within in a particular world. I for one have tried playing the ES games, but I really don't find solo play interesting. I never have (except maybe Super Mario hehe). I've always loved the art, atmosphere and the idea of being able to do anything that is in the ES series... and I love watching my husband play... but I've never finished a single game. The point? Gaming is a social thing for me. There are many, many, many people that this is true for... I dare say it's a common reason for those drawn to play MMOs. This is why I'm so excited for TESO. I finally get to experience some of the aspects of ES... whilst I enjoy running around in it with my friends. I don't need to see every single person in game. I just need to see the ones that matter ;)

Bleep it, Fog convinced us to prepurrchaz two copies :B

It's going to be rice and gibblets for us for a while, but at least we are with you guys! :D

@Kitty - I still haven't purchased mine... mainly because we're already on rice and giblets hehe But it's on the list to do ASAP!

I have preordered the game and this will be my second collectors edition(Been too poor in the past) but so far I really like the game. As for the sub model I don't mind it, seems to filter out some of the unwanted gaming element. Will it last no I don't think so the only reason i'd stop playing is if they disable large UI otpions unless you are a premium player IE SWTOR.....I loved that game for me it was a great escape from the sword/magic genre and it was more robust than those other scifi type games. The thing I like about the elderscrolls is the content lore and sheer amount of things to do ESPECIALLY with exploration I have alot of fun poking in and around off the beaten path items. The other thing I am looking forward to is the PVP castle keep sieges. TBH GW2 has not really been all the fun running around in a blob or getting picked off by thieves. I want more of the lineage II/DAOC castle sieges that were pretty entertaining. That's my two cents.

Speaking as someone who's logged 'literally' thousands of hours in Skyrim, and other Elder Scrolls titles, I have to say it's a solid 'meh' for me.  I can't see playing it for any length of time at all.  Wildstar?

@LordMelchom - Wait... other factions are invisible to us? So it's like there's only one faction in the whole world except in Cyrodill? When we wander their lands we'll only see others from our own faction? That's really strange, and really makes no sense. Of course we should see their people in their lands - they shouldn't be ghost towns. If they don't let us fight them that's fine, but they should be there.

If that's the case then I hope there's something that hides their actions as well, because it's going to be really freaky to wander into an area that's busy with other faction activity and see mobs fighting nothing and dropping dead for no visible reason.

Riannoc,
You don't  go to the other faction's areas by just walking there. This should help: http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/03/19/the-elder-scrolls-online-interview-paul-sage/

Interesting, Malthol. So you unlock the ability to play in a harder version of their faction area and can group up with and interact with them as well. Almost sounds like you're joining their faction except they said that you'll still be with your original faction in Cyrodill.

So you can have friends across all factions and be with them everywhere except Cyrodill if you do the end game work to unlock both other faction areas. Sounds pretty cool!