Am I Objectifying Women With My GW2 Ranger?

So, I made a new Gaiscioch desktop wallpaper for my PC using one already provided on our website, but added my two toons to it.  My Human Ranger Xensa and my Sylvari Guardian Xiixen are on it, but looking how I plan to make them look eventually.

Here's the issue.  My wife saw it of course, and told me that she does not like the way Xensa looks 'cause her left breast is partially exposed, and it is unacceptable to her, because it objectifies women.  My Eight year old daughter also plays GW2 with me by her side.  She never uses my toons, or represents GSCH, or has any guild involvement.  My wife doesn't want her to see Xensa looking like that, because she doesn't want her to learn that as being a respectable way for women to look.

Funny thing is, to me, the thought of Xensa looking bad NEVER crossed my mind and maybe that's because I'm a dude.  I just don't think she looks bad.  I think she looks badass, and the damage she causes in game backs it up.  I always saw women who feel comfortable dressing with provocativeness as being a matter of confidence combined with looks al-la Angelina Jolie.  My thinking is that it is just a game, and it is not really a big deal, because everyone ( including our children,) have seen far more Female exposure on the beach, on TV, and in movies.  How is that perfectly acceptable, yet a ficticious cartoon character in a game is not?

The toon that my daughter uses is fully clothed and looks like a total disregard for color coordination.  When my Daughter saw Xensa on the desktop in passing, she said "Xensa looks cool!  Xiixen looks spikey."

I'm going to make Xensa look how I want, because...well...it's my game, and she looks awesome.

Am I objectifying Women by doing so?

Here is a scaled-down version of my desktop wallpaper:

I removed the wallpaper from my desktop out of respect for my wife's wishes, but I'll continue have Xensa eventually look that way in-game, unless it offends the Women in our GSCH Family. Does it bother you, or are you cool with it?

I like my necro to look slightly sexy (I am a woman) and she wears far less than your toon is here. I like the leather cultural set and if I had the cash my rogue would prolly rock it. ;)

RLW - and to me it all a matter of subjectiveness - or personal taste. Your wife sounds a lot like me, yet I know woman who will dress showing huge amounts of cleavage whereas I never would. In movies I often wonder why they dress woman a certain way when they are actions stars - and honestly - it is for the men - which I have no issue with. But take a look at Sharon Stone in "The Quick and the Dead" - still very sexy but not much skin showing. Even Angelina Jolie in "Salt" - still sexy - but totally covered... again in Tomb Raider - no portion of the breasts showing but very short shorts (although they are very inpractical. You ever strap a belt around your bare thigh and go running with it - not likely. Movies and the such go for sex appeal - not practicality. OK - I understand that. Although - yes - it is to objectify women - but they do the same with "hunks". I dress my characters as I would dress (given the choice in armors) as how I would in Real Life - if I was put into that situation. I hate the fact that "casters" (male and female) are always wearing gowns, long flowing robes, and such. Standing on a battlement casting spells is one thing... running though a forest and jumping over rocks, swimming in lakes, running though the snow - quite another. My ranger dresses like a hunter... My engineer dresses like a gunslinger... my casters do the best they can with what is offered. But - it is a game... it is the movies.... I also wouldn't go against the wishes of my spouse - because it is just a game... there are better things to pick fights over. The first dodge/roll she does will undress her - and she'll die while attempting to do a wardrobe malfunction repair... :) Respect is a valuable thing to have and give. It also costs very little and reaps big rewards. I like the fact you respect your wife enough to do that. Does it offend me? If it did I wouldn't play the game. I'm still playing. Just my opinion.

» Edited on: 2013-03-07 16:39:37

For whatever reason, this topic seems to have come up across a number of fora I visit lately, so I've heard quite a lot of discussion back and forth over it. The answer, of course, is that there is no easy answer. There are men who tell women to cover up because they're 'inviting sin', there are women who tell women to cover up because they 'look trashy', there are women who tell men not to display half-naked fantasy avatars because they think it's 'exploitative'. But then you've got men and women who say the reverse. I've seen women protest Hooters and I've seen women walk around topless, both in the name of women's rights. Where is the balance between exploitation and freedom? In the end, all you can do is hope to have the proper intent. I don't believe there's anything inherently evil about the naked body, but I can respect the opinion of people who find excessive focus on it to be problematic, and would choose not to be exposed to what they believe to be objectionable content. The added complication these days is with things like female avatars played by men (and I play a lot of female avatars) and the question as to whether or not it's acceptable for a man to dress up his toon in a sexy fashion. I contend that how a man chooses to dress or play his female avatar has a lot less to do with his treatment and respect of women than other more substantial factors in the real world. However, in this case, I would definitely defer to spousal preference and leave it at that, though it would make for an interesting discussion!

The human body is a beautiful work of art regardless of genders, I do not understand how people can find it offensive. This must be a cultural thing, I was raised to appreciate mother nature in all of her beauty and have always found imposed modesty (covering up) to be an oddity of modern day society. The artistic beauty of a woman (and man) should be celebrated not scorned.

I am female in real life and most of my toons are female - I like to dress my toons in a sexy way sometimes and I am not offended by the exposure of part of a breast. I cringe when I hear women comment on other females as looking 'trashy', it is another way in which society takes away a girl's confidence and it is a method of disempowerment. I have a daughter who is now 21 and I do remember how it felt when she was very young to want to protect her from exposure to sexual themes, but I wouldn't personally have had a problem with my daughter seeing women dressed in sexy ways in video games or as showing their power through ownership of their sexuality. Edited to add: My husband always plays female toons and they are usually quite sexy, this doesn't bother me at all, but woe betide him if he suggested hooters for lunch! That wouldn't go down well with me hehehe

» Edited on: 2013-03-07 18:00:12

Oh the irony! My wife and I were talking at the table a little more about this and then something funny happened. I must say, for the record, that my Wife is actually quite liberal minded and not prudish at all when it comes to issues like sexuality. I married a very strong woman, who thankfully is not too stubborn to see things from my perspective as well. I would go nuts if she were not a good/fun debater. She keeps my brain-pan working. Whoops, I digressed. Anyway, while I was telling her how I understand her desire for our eight year old Daughter not to see underboob, our Daughter came to the table with her naked Barbie asking for my help putting on her clothes! Talk about full exposure! lol you guys should have seen the look on my wife's face when I looked at her with a smirk...PRICELESS! I get that the way Xensa's dressed is sexualised and all, and the Barbie obviously is not, but it was fun to drive my point, as flawed as it was, with a look.

» Edited on: 2013-03-07 18:01:11

I always make my female toons like sexy. I think women irl and in games have a right to dress how they want. I do not subscribe to the attitudes of prudish people, and do not think they should dictate how anyone should look, dress or feel about themselves. That said, I have personal lines drawn as to the difference between the kickass Amazonian versus the slutty pirate hooker differential. I prefer the former. I guess whether your toon looks acceptable is not really my call in the context of the relationship between you and your wife. If my partner had a toon like that I would be all for it as a female, but hey I tend to be totally open minded and cool with that kind of thing. Everyone is different in what they feel comfortable with and you have to respect that. I am not a fan of the corner ho look, because to me that is not classy and just cheapens feminine beauty. You can however look sexy and classy without looking like a pimp just dropped you off! Your toon looks fine in my opinion, but then my opinion does not matter one bit, as I am not your wife!

» Edited on: 2013-03-07 18:47:06

I'd say objectification in any context is a matter of intent, not presentation. Since I'm pretty sure your wife didn't mean to imply that was your intent, and she cannot know that was the intent of the designers and concept artists, I would say it must be some manner of projection of intent. It's thoughtful that you give mindful consideration to the sensitivity, but (clinically speaking) the situation as you convey it seems to indicate some manner of control/power issue 'neath which the "objectification" is hiding. The reasoning that calls upon your daughter as supportive excuse further implies that there may be some fear that her sensitivity would not receive consideration, thus requires another, supporting reason. Of course, I'm approaching it strictly from the psychological perspective and without any personal knowledge of either of you (relying on references and such from the field) so please do take this with a grain (or block) of salt as may be applicable. As for my personal opinion, I'm not sure it really matters or would carry weight as anecdotal opinions are not usually found to do so (even as they are commonly called upon to serve this purpose). Gender studies, sociology, and anthropology all point to sexualization as a form of cultural/societal dominance... so on that ground, the position does have its own merit; i.e., generally speaking in the gaming industry, it is very common to have male designers create relatively untenable (if not outright ludicrously over-sexualized) female visuals and gear. One of my favorite comics on the matter came about from World of Warcraft (though has been equally represented in some manner from the time of Everquest, etc); it shows a male warrior taking off an old set of armor to put on a new, shinier set. He hands the old set to his companion (female) who squeals in delight and runs off to the dressing room to put it on. She returns looking disgruntled and mildly embarrassed as it seems the full set of armor he gave her magically transformed into a metallic bikini as soon as she touched it. (I wish I could find it, but Google has not been kind.) I find that rather makes the point, even if it doesn't directly corroborate objectifying intent (other than playing to the demographic; something that, by the by, has changed enough in the last three years to be bringing its own backlash to the forefront of things). I hope the two of you find a happy medium. :)

» Edited on: 2013-03-07 19:49:53

» Edited on: 2013-03-07 19:50:22

I'm a woman who likes women. Let's just get that out there. So my point of view may be very different from others. For me, the issue of indecency in videogame armour comes down to equality. As Ekadzati says above - when a male avatar version of a piece of armour fully covers the skin, yet the female version barely covers the breasts/groin, there is something wrong. I certainly don't want to abolish the 'sexy' armours. On the contrary - I'd like to see them show the same amount of skin for male AND female toons. Then it's totally about how YOU the player want to dress your avatar. Everything from fully covered to barely there in metal, leather AND cloth. None of this practically forcing people to wear long coats for leather, or long skirts for cloth - having good looking armours in practical styles as well as fantastical. I'm an Equal Opportunities activist - I want to be able to dress men just as seductively as women if I choose ;)

"I must say, for the record, that my Wife is actually quite liberal minded and not prudish at all when it comes to issues like sexuality." I'm Glad that your wife is open minded. Sorry if I came across as aggressive in judgment in my post, I wasn't aiming my post at her in particular, but more at how society itself portrays the human body to be a dirty thing to be covered and hidden. I'm no psychedelic hippy by any means, in fact, I'm quite the opposite as I'm ex-military and still quite regimented but I still believe that the human body is a thing of absolute beauty in both physical, mental and a spiritual capacity and can be portrayed as such without sexual reference. I agree with Marra also that there should be equal opportunity customisation for both men and women characters. I know I would love to play a character that looks like Khal Drogo (Jason Momoa), then again, I would also like to play an obese guy in an MMO one day. That was probably the one thing I loved about Aion, was the truly remarkable physical customisation you had with your characters, I had a character that looked like Saddam Hussein, Barrack Obama and a Harlem Globetrotter in Aion, truly the best customisation I had ever used.

Its not about how your sexy underboob outfit in a video game "objectifies" women... its the fact that **you** find it attractive, and your wife feels threatened. You probably should not have had it on your desktop, big mistake. Basically you're saying, "This is the type of woman that I find sexually attractive, and you can never look like this." You just have to L2speak wife. ;) If you don't believe me, test it out with TV shows or commercials. Personally, I like to drive mine nuts with the Carl's Jr. Cod Fish sandwich commercial... yea, you know the one. ;)

To Xensa: Yes you are. Now the caveats: This is actually quite normal, FOR BOTH MEN AND WOMEN TO DO. Your wife is (probably) feeling threatened by the image because she feels that she can't live up to the physical expectation, a normal emotional reaction (not a statement of judgement calling it emotional), her emotions are not processing that you (I hope) chose her as a mate for reasons other than looks, like emotional and mental compatibility and complimentary skill sets, these are criteria that make for long term mate selection among humans. Often times we, humans that is, objectify our preferred gender (aka: who we want to see/touch the naughty bits of) in a sexual way. We also objectify our own gender, essentially fantasizing about what we would want to look like. This is the main reason that most characters (heroes) in video games, fantasy/sci-fi literature, and those depicted in "realistic" visual art of the period have the idealized bodies that the time period desired on a cultural level (majority of individuals desire(d)). In our modern western culture this is athletic, muscular men and curvaceous, semi-athletic women. If you look back to Renascence Europe women will generally be fuller bodied no matter the age, it was a sign of prosperity. Men changed depending on age though, younger men were more athletic (strong/ better warrior (remember the nobles paid for the art)) and older men were heavier set, again with the prosperity thing. This is a short and sweet answer with none of the nitty-gritty Evolutionary Anthropology/psychology, and Biological Evolutionary Anthropology details in it. In case you were wondering, I have a Bachelor's in Anthropology, I'm not just making this stuff up. @Ekadzati: Sexualization has more to do with mating for trait selection among individuals than societal/cultural power. The use of "sexualization" for power and control didn't show any signs of existing until humans became pastoralists/agrarians and towns/cities developed. It wasn't so much sexualization as much as the desire to be certain of kinship ties for the inheritance of property (both land and goods), making women into "second class" people in most societies (there is a "matriarchal" society in China where women control the generational flow of economic prosperity and men earn economic prosperity, daily use of the economy is influenced by both men and women*) was done to restrict breeding access and to ensure that economic power stayed with the male's male children and didn't pass to another lineage. *I'll look up the name of the culture if you want, and they are fading out of existence as a distinct cultural group because the younger generations are moving into the major cities and not staying with the traditional families.

» Edited on: 2013-03-08 03:36:03

I agree with you that, from anthropology's perspective (and biology's) it's about trait selection.

I am a female, run pretty much female characters, and do my best to dress them as skimpily as possible. Because its a game, its not real people, and I appreciate the beauty of the female body (even one in pixels). The only thing I wish was different was that some of the men had skimpier outfits, too, because the male body is also beautiful. Quite frankly, I don't really get what the big hoopla is about. An actress/model/virtual character showing skin has nothing to do with my freedom to show/not-show skin, and restriction of my choices is the only thing that would upset me. That being said, obviously part of a marriage is taking the other person's feelings into consideration, which it seems clear you know and are actively communicating with your wife on the issue. :)

I think it doesn't matter what I think. If it bothers your wife then change it... your life will be happier for it. After all it is only a game so what does it matter... your wife needs to come first.

Its just a matter of our socail upbringing. To be honest our country is a tiny bit prudish. It amazes me just how old fashioned our country is. We tend to judge things when there really isnt anything to judge. IE we make things into mountains that are really only ant hills. I admit I felt that way about objectifying also until I spent some time in europe. There is alot of content over there that people would find offensive here. I kinda wish we had alittle more of their understanding then maybe everything would not be a conflict here. Its not a matter of objectifing things as its a matter of they dont think of it that way. They look at the human body as a work of art something to be admired both male and female. Unfortunately here we take it to a pretty sedy place alot of the time. its why alot of gaming content is modified before it can be sold in this country. To answer your question I dont think your objectifying women at all .

Being a women an a bit older I would have to say that your toon/toons looks great! It's up to others that have an objective mind or the world they want to see or have. The world around us is not modest and it's getting more and more open "anything goes", so to speak. It's up to us to draw the line as we raise our children in what they see and hear, for they are our future for what WILL be acceptable.

If I can offer up some advice passed down from generation to generation of my family. From father to son.... from grandfather to grandson. In the matters considering your wife. When involved in an argument you have two choices and you have to ask yourself two simple questions. Do you want to be right?.... or.... Do you want to be happy? lol Because in some cases you can't have both.

@ Marra you could always play FFXIV and rock a boy toon with a subligar! lol

I personally wish I had more plate cod pieces to wear on my male toons. I want to feel sexy too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6p5AZp7r_Q

Hummm...*looks at sexy toon*..."I am not objectifying this pixealated toon. I am just looking. I swear. Kidding aside I wouldn't put that on my computer. Not because its not awesome, but because I know it would upset my wife. It does make the female body an object to be admired. I don't know how we could look at that toon and not see that. But, our bodies are objects and I think the whole concept of objectifying men/women needs to be considered in context of what objectifying a body is all about. Its simply in my opinion, taking away the person within the body and focusing soley on appearance. The negative conatation behind the word comes from the idea that seeing and usuing the male or female body to sell a product, or simply as a means to an end. Bodies can be very beautiful, so can the people in them. Our society does place way to much importance on appearance. Its easy to see, quick, gratifying, eye candy. As far as raising my 3 boys. They will see beautiful things. I hope to teach them the importance of character, as it trumps appearance anyday. Just because I see a beautiful scantly clad toon doesn't mean they can beat my awesome armor clad Norn guardain girl of death. Its the person on the inside playing that toon that counts. :) Since I play females at times does that make me a women on the outside?

Just a bit of advice handed down through the ages on marriage. WHEN MAMA'S HAPPY, EVERYONE IS. There now you have the key to a successful union.

» Edited on: 2013-03-10 05:55:06

^ This. It's all subjective. Guild Wars 2 has a set "style". Some women might play it and think the showy armors are sexist or objectify women. Other women might play it and feel empowered. What's important is your motive and the women important to you.

Wow.... methinks your wife needs to spend some time at the malls watching what some girls wear these days. Yes I am a woman, I see nothing wrong with the pixel boob showing and yes, that is the set I'm aiming for. It does not objectify. Women have boobs. They are there. Some clothes "exemplify" them. "Nough said. She would hate to be in my house. I have Boris Vallejo's and Luis Royo's work hanging up. She'd probably faint. If it's *your* computer (as in multi-computer household), she doesn't have to look at it. Put a screen saver on it. Just wow....just wow....controversy over pixel underboob.

» Edited on: 2013-03-11 12:51:50

I dont see any where if your Wife plays? When you play MMO's you get used to how toons look in many games and you also have perhaps a different mind set. I tend to play what suits the role/character (M RL) so i have a mix of toons i was supprised when my (soon to be) wife looked over my shoulder at what i thought was an androgenous sylvari and said your playing a girl. My reply of no im playing a houseplant didnt have the desired effect. Strange thing is she is an artist convinced me to pose nude ( note:try staying still for 2 hours its not like they showed in Titanic ) proceded to show her artist friends but wouldnt be happy with me playing a half naked girl in game. I do tend to "dress" my girls mainly because i cant stand the idea of running into combat with purple knickers a garter and a smile but she is probably happier that i have the only female human mesmer in game with trousers. TL:DR I would walk through fire for her if covering a few pink pixels with a few purple pixels makes her happy not a problem love ;)

» Edited on: 2013-03-11 17:01:42

I don't think that you are objectifying women, but I do think that how female characters are portrayed in videos can objectify women. To me it's not so much about whether female characters should dress provocatively, but about giving female characters (all characters, really) a variety of armor/clothing options that let you present the image of your character that *you* want to present. I don't want to be pigeonholed into wearing bikini battlewear because I play female characters. Games that don't give me that option don't get my money. /shrug That's why one of the reasons I love GW2 (and The Secret World) - if you want to wear armor that's more demure or that you feel suits your character better, you can. My characters tend to dress conservatively or rugged up for battle/exploration, because that's how I want them to be. I tend to dress practically and conservatively in real life, and I guess that influences how I prefer to dress my characters. I don't really care how others dress their characters as long as I can dress mine the way I want to. Women have boobs, yes, but they obviously have more than that. It's when we start to focus on the 'component parts' and stop focusing on the person (or character) that we start to objectify.

Like Marra, I am a woman who likes woman (but men as well), and have had relationships with both...not at the same time :). I'm still traditional in my relationship values. Now that you've wrapped your head around that... Video games objectify woman, not you. We play because the sights and sounds are appealing to us. I think my main "Twilah" is sexy with her tatoos, and I love the outfit but hate the bow on her back. Really Anet? I'm running through mud with something that looks like the back of a bridesmaid's dress on? *sigh* I enable the Quaggan back pack so I dont see the bow. It's fun. That's all. In Warhammer I played an old, fat dwarf lady because she made me giggle with the kegs braided in her hair. I miss that. What matters is your partner is upset. Talk to her about it, and I hope you can compromise on a solution :)

Happy wife, happy life. :D