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Even leaders get disheartened sometimes.

Taoiseach de na Arach Glas
Foghladha
Taoiseach de na Arach Glas
  • GW2: Foghladha.2506
  • ESO: @Foley
Posted On: 04/23/2018 at 11:31 PM
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Hey Everyone,

I wanted to share a bit of my heart with you guys and let you know something I'm battling with. Over the past few months (since the introduction of the mass scourge trains) I've felt like GW2 just pulled a ESO at launch. WvW has become very unfun for me and I feel that as a leader I don't offer anything to the table. Lately i've watched my attendance go from 30+ to just barely over 10. I take you guys out get ya massacred and before the first hour is up half of you are gone. I just don't feel that I am as effective of a leader as I need to be to make this a pleasant experience for you. 

In the early days of ESO, AvA pretty much died at the hands of Dragonkight Former Emperor Vampires. A group of these could wipe out hundreds and essentially played god. This is the way i feel things are going with GW2's Guardian / Scourge groups. Can't kill em, can't survive past a few seconds, can't run, can't cast any conditions (Which is bloody impossible as a mesmer) otherwise they convert to boons. I tried rolling one to figure out how they work and found that they literally are built to be the rock to the mesmers scissor. All my strengths help them, all my weaknesses amplify them.  

I loved the WvW of old where fights lasted longer that a few seconds and you had a chance to fight back. Guardian Walls, Shield Generators, and impassable walls are all passable with stability which negates their usefulness entirely. The only way to win a fight is to have a premade playing the meta game or outnumber your foe 2 to 1. If Guild Wars 2 can't fix this soon I suspect we'll see the same thing that happened in ESO and the WvW side of the family will fade away. This greatly saddens me and I know I had my part in it. I just don't know what to do at this point. How can I be effective with a random deck of players with little to no composition playing a class that is the food for the current meta. Any thing I do as a mesmer helps the scourge be more powerful. I just don't have a place in this war right now.

Sorry to be a bit woe is me and all but this has been bugging me a while and seeing my numbers drop below 10 makes me worry. I just feel like I need to change things up to keep people interested or risk losing the little audience I do have that still has faith in my leadership ability. Hell even i'm questioning my ability to lead now. I just don't feel I contribute to this fight anymore. 

Thanks for listening to my rambling. I'm thinking really seriously about stepping away from WvW for a while and try to get my grove back in other places in the game. I love GW2 and it will always have a place in my heart, I'm just not loving where WvW is going these days. 

Ben

"It's not the loot and accolades you walk away with, it's the memories and friendships that you cherish forever." - Foghladha
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Response:

Draoi de na Ulchabhan Dubh
Mika
Draoi de na Ulchabhan Dubh
  • GW2: Mikaq.7102
Replied On: 04/24/2018 at 02:50 AM PDT
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I have been participating on Pookha's WvW events for sometime on Saturdays and while WvW is numbers game, bigger blob usually wins, it is also about composition. Pookha's frontline composition seems to be working and when fighting even numbers or maybe slightly larger group, we are able to keep things working. Of course we lose some of the fights, but we also win some of the fights. Sorry to hear that people are not participating on WvW with you. Anyway maybe there could be place for improvement, guide people to do changes into build and when fighting in squad using composition group and having certain role classes in each group and then rest of the dps people as backline group doing the actual bombing. 

Me and Namrie runs alternating weeks WvW event on Mondays and Tuesdays and we usually get 10-15 people in our events and we encounter same kind of problems. Even smaller group can wipe our group easily and when you start dying constantly then people starts dropping out. I remember clearly some of the ESO AvA fights where single emperor came on and just wiped 50 players just like that and that can discourage people pretty quickly, because balance isn't correct. Unfortunately same happens in GW2, but usually problem in WvW is that you have group maybe 20 people and opposing team comes in with 40+ man blob and there is no way to win that kind of group unless you are in tower/keep and you have defensive siege weapons. And at least my problem with my WvW events is that I can't lead people effective enough as I would like and that is why most of time we end up laying down our backs after clashing out with another group.

What comes to mesmer, seeing mesmers in sPvP, is that their power comes from ability burst lot of damage in short time and hoping that person dies, after that mesmer loses their edge until bomb skills are recharged. In WvW mesmers should be utilized for portals and veils to engage opposing team. 

All we can hope that Anet gets Alliance system up and running as soon as possible. While that doesn't correct problems with guardian and scourge groups, at least it should address issues in group sizes and we should be seeing more and more even sized groups clashing onto each other. Idea is sound behind this change and that is a start, but they also need to continue balancing things out in WvW and do other changes. 

Anyway don't get disheartened Fog. Just try to guide people into changing builds and use composition groups if possible and after that it is just practice, practice and more practice. After all like Raids, it comes to build and gear, but also in tactics and mechanics. 

I just wish I could join WvW with you, but unfortunately I need my beauty sleep as your events happens during night time for me. 

The most important thing in life will always be the people around you. Salud, mi familia.
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Ban Fili de na Iolair Dearg
Briseadh
Ban Fili de na Iolair Dearg
  • GW2: Briseadh.7386
Replied On: 04/24/2018 at 06:25 AM PDT
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I've had issues with my hands a lot again the past couple of months and some timing issues. Last night I had a lot of fun even if my first stint was splatting to a zerg. LOL! I knew I wasn't going to make it the full event due to a really long day. So that explains where I've been or if I'm only there for part. We had some really good fights after that for the hour I could function enough to run out there.

We are always going to have zergs. We used to have the nasty hammer trains, so moving to the scourge train is just a new nuisance to deal with. I'm not sure which one is worse because I die just as well to both. ;)

I still really enjoy WvW when my disability allows me to deal with it and I'll be coming out when I can again. My reaction time is what gets me killed most of the time.

And no I was not in the right voice channel last night, but MOST of the time I was on the tag. Thanks Fog for 8.5 years of follow the leader training. LOL! I have a good idea how you are going to move now.

Don't mess with Mama Bear, I might hug you too tight. =D
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Caomhnoir de na Ulchabhan
TheVulpineWiTch
Caomhnoir de na Ulchabhan
  • GW2: Grolyn.2359
  • ESO: @WiTchVulpine
Replied On: 04/24/2018 at 08:56 AM PDT
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 You are certainly an effective leader, every run I've ran with you all has always been more than pleasant. WvW is fun and it's nearly all I do in the game, but I know it can get tedious at times, especially when certain class/builds are a little too brawny(OP). Composition/Metas are certainly part of an effective squad, that along with a steady roster of people to execute those builds, I know their are people that like that play style, I'm not sure if anyone else is like me but I for one Am PUG, I go where pugs feel comfortable, inclusive places, and your runs in my mind always meant 'welcome' no matter what you run which has always been admirable, but that's certainly harder to manage because of the gradient of skill, and people not being in Comms, especially in this wvw climate where its demanding a bit more finesse and build knowledge whether those builds be personally made or otherwise. In any case for what it's worth, I appreciate what you do, I'll will always be looking forward to your next run, and I thank you for making WvW a comfortable space for those of us who are quieter.

Flesh is a heretic, my body is a WiTch I am burning it.
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Ban Caomhnoir de na Ulchabhan Donn
Avohaiel
Ban Caomhnoir de na Ulchabhan Donn
  • GW2: sidhemoon.5029
  • ESO: @Avohaiel
Replied On: 04/24/2018 at 10:32 AM PDT
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Not exactly a frequent event attendee, but try to show up for a couple a week in both ESO and GW2. Actually, more often than not, they are your events in both games.

That brings me to another observation, frankly I am in awe of all you do across so many platforms to keep this group a cohesive family. You can only give so much of yourself before burnout hits. 

Honestly the wipes matter little to me. We had a few solid nail biting victories last night that were more than worth the price of eating dirt.

 

Oh, dont tell anyone..

but.... I have grown to like fall damage.

....its just not a good guild run without it, imho :D

 

Whenever you find that mojo again, will be waiting to go cliff divin' ;)

 

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Caomhnoir de na Aracos
PuaHone
Caomhnoir de na Aracos
  • GW2: monk seal.8079
Replied On: 04/24/2018 at 03:50 PM PDT
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A major factor is the time of your events.  NA prime time is when most of the elite WvW guilds are online so naturally your groups will be fighting experienced groups on voice comms using the meta scourge, spellbreaker, and firebrand builds.

When I  log on in the evenings at 9 or 10 pm Hawaii time (12 or 1 am PST), I notice the atmosphere is completely different.  Zergs consist primarily of pugs with many runnng non-meta classes.  Yes, you will still

see scourges, spellbreakers, and firebrands but the numbers are smaller and groups are not as well coordinated as those running during the NA prime time.

 

An area for exploration:   devising counter tactics to the scourge/spellbreaker/firebrand meta.  It's like the sport of football where offensive schemes (wishbone, spread offense) become very popular until the defenses catch up then the flavor of

the month offenses fall out of favor.

E lawe i ka manawa e hanu i na pua loke. Take the time to smell the roses.
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Caomhnoir de na Aracos
JamesHunt
Caomhnoir de na Aracos
  • GW2: Ezekiel.7619
Replied On: 04/24/2018 at 06:41 PM PDT
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Hi Fog,

As far as what happened yesterday: I was feeling tired after an hour or so and dropped by then. I could not commit to the full time. Sorry. My bad. Kidding. Not really. Getting old. Nothing to do with you or your leadership.

I am sure everybody is with you on this. Nobody likes to lose and everyone wants to win. With the recent changes in GW2 and especially WvW: fights are cut very short because of XYZ and that becomes very frustrating as you have mentioned. And let's not even account for players who may actually be cheating. Yes, for instance: I have seen a mesmer walking through a wall like there was no wall (clearly cheating, go figure). So who knows what else is in store.

Overall don't beat yourself too eagerly about this. Reset your priorities. Remember to have fun.

Hosting these events is proof enough of your great leadership, regardless of how fights turns out in game. Some elements to ponder and/or consider:

  • Try to get the WvW daily objectives done?
    • Those are usually "easy" goals that can be accomplished without headache and they are "rewarding" (giving people some incentives)
  • Try to opt for a more defensive game plan?
    • Avoid "big" fights where we are doomed to lose 90% of the time
    • Don't spread too far from the spawn camp
    • Take an objective (camp < tower < keep) and focus of defending it
      • Load up towers with defensive siege weapons, etc...
      • Engage opponents within the vicinity of siege weapons
  • Try to team up with (or follow closely) other commanders?
    • Maybe we can second another "fight" groups
      • Play as a support group as opposed to being a hero/zero group
    • If ya can't beat the zerg be da zerg
  • Try to get more people involved in WvW?
    • I always feel that if all our online players would join the commander on deck we would be and look awesome as a guild

Again, take that with a grain of salt. It is not to say what you have to do. Those are only random ideas. Trying and failing is better than not doing anything in my book.

I personally always look forward to these events. That is what a community is for. For us to regroup and have fun together. Ok, WvW may not be that much fun at the moment. But it would be much worse if you were not around to lead us on the occasion. I heard Winter was finally over and brighter days are to come.

I am curious now to see if you have other games in mind that would be better suited for a large community such as GSCH where their time together would be better spent.

Cheers.

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Ridire de na Aracos
Klove
Ridire de na Aracos
  • GW2: klove.4980
Replied On: 04/24/2018 at 08:36 PM PDT
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I appreciate your honesty and willingness to make the gameplay more exciting for us all.  I think your leadership and untiring commitment are exceptional. What differentiate your style from others is that you always make it so welcoming for anyone to join, “come as you are” type attitude, skilled or new.  I’m noticing only few commanders are as inviting, e.g. announcing to players to join and how to get on voice comm, and overall, displaying communication, map awareness, and supporting other tags present.  Besides, it’s a lot more pleasant running with a GSCH tag than roaming on your own for sure (I think a lot of us, only come if an event is scheduled).  Although your pace can sometimes be fast and a little hard to keep up for me, I love being able to play with the guild, learning, and just simply having fun together on the battlefield.  I do enjoy the casual, easygoing gameplay and not having to stress over group composition, builds, etc.  It just wouldn’t be the same without you leading us, so Thank You for putting up a tag and making our WvW night a lot more fun :-)

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Ban Caomhnoir de na Aracos Corcra
Abbi
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  • GW2: Abbi.6579
Replied On: 04/25/2018 at 08:35 AM PDT
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Fog, you are an amazing leader, its not your leading style. WvW is becoming a zerg fest for sure, but it is still fun and I enjoy it, until the leader leaves most of us behind. I have noticed that people start to drop when you blink sooo far away the tail is a mile long, then people get picked off one by one. One thing the other WvW leaders do is stop and allow the rest of the group to catch up and stay as a ball, not a snake. =)) 

Me, personally, I dont mind dying to zergs, it happens and not much you can do about it most of the time. Poohka runs a more structured group and separates groups in squad according to what class they are , and where they should stand during a fight. Now, I dont think a structured group is feasible for a community event, but if you have a front line composition to take most of the heat, it might work a little. Not really sure what you want to do with the WvW event,. for the most part people do have a great time and love coming out!!! Dont give up on us , it will be just fine. We will always follow you off cliffs anyplace! Hopefully the new WvW structure will be better!! We just got unlucky with the match ups this time.

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Taoiseach de na Arach Glas
Foghladha
Taoiseach de na Arach Glas
  • GW2: Foghladha.2506
  • ESO: @Foley
Replied On: 04/25/2018 at 10:41 AM PDT
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@Abbi, The problem i find is that if I slow up too much the zerg catches up to us. We stop to fight 1 it turns to 2 turns to 30 turns to 80. For us to survive out there we need to move fast. The only time I blink and go full speed is when i'm trying to get to an objective to contest it before it flips. Otherwise if I blink i'm dropping a portal to get you somewhere quickly. I try to let people catch up but a lot of people get easily distracted and literally I wont be able to accomplish anything waiting around for people to stop farming nodes, or chasing 1 person. I use my speed line behind me for a reason. I try never to speed myself up unless I have to. Moving fast is part of survival. The longer we stick around in one place the more likely we are to be wiped. Especially when fighting 3 to 1 odds. 

My WvW / RvR / AvA events since the beginning of time we're designed to be entry level all access regardless of skill or guild affiliation. I know that if I build premades into my Warband we will have a more successful go at things however by doing so we often alienate or issolate the average joe who just wants to come out and have a good time and simply wont change their build or how they play. I focus on being able to allow anyone to join us. Heck I have my mom, dad, and daughter all rolling around with us at times and thats the way I like it. My problem is that Guild Wars 2 has moved away from allowing casual gamers to be contributing members of the WvW space and have begun making it so you have to use one of the top 3 builds/classes to be effective. If you don't then your just food. ESO did this at launch and there were a million former emperor dragonknight vampires running around that simply couldn't be killed 1 v 20.  God Moding has ruined many games and I simply don't want Guild Wars 2 to fall into that rut. Hell it nearly wiped out ESO's AvA. You shouldn't need to be a pro gamer to enjoy WvW.

@everyone I'm going to be switching to my Guardian for a while and run the current meta firebrand to see if that helps our survivability for a while. Mesmer just feeds the enemy forces right now and I have not found a single way to play that doesn't help Scorge Necros be more effective. All my skills help them not hurt them. In this current meta my Mesmer is useless and actually hinders our progress. So to try to make the best of it i'm going to switch to guardian. 

If we end up in T4 again I think I may just move the event to Edge of the Mists as we are much more effective there and typically get a much larger force. It's more casual player friendly and I think it will be a nice vacation away from the cesspool that T4 has become. Hopefully we get into T3 or T2 where the battles are usually more balanced and the personalities are friendlier. 

 

"It's not the loot and accolades you walk away with, it's the memories and friendships that you cherish forever." - Foghladha
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Ban Fili de na Iolair Dearg
Briseadh
Ban Fili de na Iolair Dearg
  • GW2: Briseadh.7386
Replied On: 04/25/2018 at 10:51 AM PDT
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@Fog - I sure hope we get a new pairing mostly so we can play some different people for a change. It might wind up just being a new soap opera, but at least they can wind up entertaining for a round as you figure out the who's who. ;) There are a few good apples to work with in this crew, but I usually see them EU prime time (US afternoons). Anyway, I won't have  long day next Monday so will try to stick out both hours now that I'm feeling up to the pressure WvW adds to the hands vs. the stop and go I can do in PvE.

Don't mess with Mama Bear, I might hug you too tight. =D
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Draoi de na Ulchabhan Dubh
Mika
Draoi de na Ulchabhan Dubh
  • GW2: Mikaq.7102
Replied On: 04/26/2018 at 12:12 AM PDT
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While I agree that you shouldn't be pro gamer to enjoy WvW, in the same time you can't go in WvW and use gear and build which you managed just scrape by and win all the time. Most of the time it just doesn't work. Besides by look of it, any bigger group you encounter in WvW, is more or less organized and are running current meta. Like in my raid events I try to encourage people to look up current meta builds and look up how it should be played and even practice with it. While I understand that people want to use gear and build which they are comfortable with or is fun to them, it may not work best in raids/wvw/fractals or max level content altogether.

After all at least for me, I don't find it enjoyable if you need to bash your head to wall and die constantly. Which happens in WvW a lot, at least with Pookha. I understand that open field battling is fun, but when you have ran to the wall n + 1 times then it becomes frustrating. Though that is most of time numbers game like you said Fog, 3 to 1 or at least 2 to 1 and if both group are running meta, well everyone knows what happens. That is why I liked last weekend, because of double WXP. Lot of capturing objectives and less fighting and bashing your head to wall :) 

Luckily most of peeps on EU prime in WvW has been quite nice and haven't seen that much toxicity like that one pairing long time ago where there was one guy shouting in team chat constantly. But yeah it would nice to get some other servers for next 8 weeks. Is this like 3rd time we got HoD in a row so change would be welcome. 

The most important thing in life will always be the people around you. Salud, mi familia.
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Caomhnoir de na Capall Corcra
Eluveittie
Caomhnoir de na Capall Corcra
Replied On: 04/27/2018 at 11:03 AM PDT
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The same problems occured in Rift PVP. Big premade zergs with the best gear and builds destroying everything and anyone in their path like a Mongol horde. The devs scramble to fix things and reset the ballance. The Mongol horde finds the next best thing and the process starts all over. PVP is just a arms race. If your not the best you die. So all you can do is go after the guy who is weaker than you till everyone no longer wants to play. If your not part of the zerg horde your gonna get killed over and over. So there are only 2 options quit or keep trying and expect to die alot. Eventually you will die less but your still going to die when the zerg hits you. Unless your the same level and composition as the zerg you will die. So like every other group that has tried to go toe to toe with a big army and gotten destroyed all you can do is hit and run gorilla tatics to make thier life hell. Such is war. 

"The strength of the pack is the wolf. The strength of the wolf is the pack." .......... Ruyard Kipling
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Caomhnoir de na Aracos Gorm
Yobam
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  • GW2: Yobam.3078
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Replied On: 05/01/2018 at 02:19 PM PDT
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I'm on the same page as Mika, WvW is just similar to raids and high level fractals. I was stubborn from the WvW side of things and didn't want to change my armor to run a raid and I caused the whole group to die. I made a PvE set and was able to complete it. When HoL runs, we encourage people to try or builds out and there are several for each class for the most part. If you don't then we fit you in a group anyway. A key thing with our builds is you don't have to run the ascended version if you don't have it, the exotic versions work just as well and Pookha does attempt to keep them on the cheaper side when possible. Lately at the Saturday night HoL event, there has even been more GSCH than HoL present and we have had some great fights. That's my 2 cents, I gotta wrap this up and go get dinner started before my wife gets home or she will think that I have just been sitting on the computer since I got home. I can't give that impression.

Please do not enable Pookha by giving him a Fiery Great Sword.
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Taoiseach de na Arach Glas
Foghladha
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  • GW2: Foghladha.2506
  • ESO: @Foley
Replied On: 05/02/2018 at 11:16 AM PDT
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I'm going to move my Monday Night event to EOTM for a bit to try to rekindle the love for WvW. This week's battlefield wasn't much better. I couldn't even survive past 3 seconds after confrontation. I like all the suggestions in this thread and understand the direction of this game is changing. 

@Eluveittee, This was not always the case. In DAOC and WAR tactics prevailed over meta builds. There was all kinds of meta builds in those games, but they were killable. There is a mistake developers are making right now that is taking the length of engagement down from 30 seconds to a minute to under 5 seconds. ESO had this problem at launch and then began rolling out fixes for it. Today ESO's length of engagement is in the minute range in the open field. In Warhammer it's often several minutes long. 

My biggest problem with all of this is "Play how you want, When you want, For As Long as You Want"  This has been our credo for years. I do not want to force people to play a certain way or even tell them they should. I want them to be able to come out and enjoy their time with me regardless of how good they are. I will not compromise on this point. Gaiscioch was created to counter these groups and give people a home that were not playing to the meta. That doesn't mean others can't play to the meta, they're welcome to. I just don't want my groups to force people to play a certain way. I want to keep us open and welcoming to all. I just need to go back to our T1 style of play and avoid the zerg.

"It's not the loot and accolades you walk away with, it's the memories and friendships that you cherish forever." - Foghladha
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Ridire de na Faolchu
Dallamir
Ridire de na Faolchu
  • GW2: Dallamar.8254
Replied On: 05/02/2018 at 01:51 PM PDT
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I’m still pretty new to GW2 but played WvW a few times and loved the ESO version a few years ago.  After reading all the posts above I like ‘JamesHunt’s’ post, find something that works for our group.  Be the zerg, be the little ‘strike’ force that harasses, distracts, or supports. I’m not up on all the strategy of WvW yet but get some objectives and plan to die a lot is about all I expect from a WvW run.  It’s just fun running around with the guild for me. It’s still better than WoW pvp... I have followed you Fog a couple times in WvW and from my view I though you did a great job leading the group.

Finally, a quote from Sun Tzu - “If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles…” 

Last Edited on: 05/02/2018 at 01:53 PM
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Ban Ridire de na Ulchabhan
Calsie
Ban Ridire de na Ulchabhan
  • GW2: Calsie.2501
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Replied On: 05/05/2018 at 02:14 PM PDT
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I've been taking a break from GW2 and spending more time in ESO lately. But it makes me sad to think you might be feeling discouraged, Fog. Your events have always been fun and relaxed -- a welcome break from the stresses of real life. I appreciate that you make a place for people like me who are content to be average. In previous games, I used to strive for server firsts and raiding. But I got tired of the work. So thank you for making the special place that this guild is. I'll try to be more supportive in my small way, and get out to more GW2 events and offer up my corpse with the rest of you. :)

Last Edited on: 05/05/2018 at 04:03 PM
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Caomhnoir de na Ulchabhan
Burialsoup
Caomhnoir de na Ulchabhan
  • GW2: Kavor.6183
Replied On: 05/06/2018 at 02:15 PM PDT
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I coudn't agree more with you fog,as I hoped gw2 wvw was going to replace my love for Warhammer,but the direction they have taken it was disappointing for me

so I no longer play, perhaps maybe will change, but when all else fails, take a break or change nothing wrong with that.

Last Edited on: 05/06/2018 at 02:16 PM
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Taoiseach de na Arach Glas
Foghladha
Taoiseach de na Arach Glas
  • GW2: Foghladha.2506
  • ESO: @Foley
Replied On: 05/07/2018 at 10:55 AM PDT
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Seems changing my playtime helps too. My late night ClubGaiscioch WvW Event was much more friendly. We won quite a bit and manged to stop a force with greater numbers than us a few times. I'm finding Aegis and anything that reflects seems to hurt the current meta Necro dubstep circle wielding fiends. They died quick when I threw aegis on us and reflect on them.

 

"It's not the loot and accolades you walk away with, it's the memories and friendships that you cherish forever." - Foghladha
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Bandraoi de na Ulchabhan Bán
GmaFog
Bandraoi de na Ulchabhan Bán
  • GW2: GmaFoghladha.1853
Replied On: 05/07/2018 at 02:19 PM PDT
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Guess we need a bit more practice Fog -  helps us learn to handle challenges that way. Aegis on friend and reflect on foe?  Gonna try that a bit more.  

When life throws you a curve ball, hit a home run! - Gma Fog
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