Probably falling on deaf ears

Just posted this on the official forums. I know it won't make a difference, but felt like it needed to be said.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/110051/nerfing-craglorn-is-not-the-solution?new=1

I just learned that ZO nerfed the XP and rewards from doing anomalies in Craglorn and like many of you I just have to shake my head and resist the urge to unsub immediately. The truth is I like this game, and I want to like it more, but ZO seems so determined to make my experience with ESO so disappointing and frustrating that I feel like just admitting defeat and quitting.

Regarding the whole Craglorn anomaly grind, I think I speak for virtually everyone who plays ESO that the whole idea was stupid from the start. Who likes killing the same boss in a loop for hours on end? It is repetitive and boring. I hated it. But you know what I hated even more? Doing the same 50 quests in each and every zone in every faction. That was a slow AND boring grind. Anomalies are fast and boring, so much better in comparison. Anomalies offered a means to an end. One means to an end out of many. Oh and for those of you who think questing is not grinding, I beg to differ. Doing 50 quests 10 times over that are ALL essentially minor variations of "fetch this, kill that, escort her, or solve that" is grinding.

To anyone who actually likes questing for 300 hours to see all the original ESO content and achieve VR12 the "respectable" way, I wish you the best. Your preferred method of gameplay has not changed one bit with all these patches. You are free to grind quests all you want. It is plain to see that ZO considers you the ideal ESO players and will do whatever it takes to make you happy. However, I advise you to not disparage others who are not so inclined. The truth is everyone who plays mmos does it for their own enjoyment, and that enjoyment is derived in numerous ways.

Now for the meat of the issue and this is directed squarely at the developers at ZO. Craglorn anomaly grinds are not the problem. The enormous XP requirement to reach max level is the problem. Why ZO decided that it should take 5 million XP to get one more rank of VR is absolutely baffling to me. Honestly, the very first time I thought about quitting the game was when I finished the level 1-50 quests and reached VR 1. After about 2 hours of running around Daggerfall I got pretty depressed when I realized I was only one third of the way to max level. But I stuck with it and made it to VR 4 when Craglorn was released. It was at that time that a nice guildie explained that I really did not need to quest through AD because of how fast you could level doing the various Craglorn grinds and I jumped in straight away. I jumped on the bandwagon and was getting my 37k XP per boss in no time. Sure the anomaly grind is boring, but it sure beats the alternative. For the first time in my ESO experience I felt like ZO realized that not everyone wants to play a single-player, quest-focused RPG and provided a way to opt out of the quest grind. And why shouldn't they? If ZO insists on keeping ridiculously high XP requirements in place, it is in their best interest to provide a shortcut to casual players who will only keep paying to play end-game pve or AvA. Immediately after Craglorn was released, I actually started a couple alts because I felt that I could level them that much faster and get to enjoy playing different roles in AvA and Trials.

But now, I'm not so sure I want to bother. Seriously, ZO, why did you give us these VR XP shortcuts in Craglorn only to take them right back? Yes, anomalies are stupid and boring, but the fact that the VR zones were basically deserted and many players were frantically trying to join an anomaly grinding group supports the obvious truth that many of your customers were not satisfied with the quest grind and just wanted to get it over with. Do you think that slowing down player advancement is a good thing? I certainly don't. I freely admit that I enjoy endgame content over questing. The Craglorn shortcut gives me the option to get to that endgame quickly, which I REALLY appreciate. So please, keep Craglorn the way it is or at least give us an equivalent way to level quickly. I'm probably not alone in saying I will play this game for a lot longer if leveling up is easier and I can enjoy playing alts. Oh, and by the way, don't take this personally, but when you release new content and then nerf it all 2 weeks later, it really makes it look like you don't know what you are doing.

I'm sorry, but what is the end-game?  Is there something different to do once you get to the highest VR rank?  I see your point, and I think a lot of MMOs cater to your style.  You mention the word "shortcut" a few times.  I think the current MMOs on the market are going to listen to that.  However, just thinking like ZO, I have to believe their customer tends to like the quest grind and AvA more than running to the finish line.  ZO took so much flack for the game not having a true Elder Scrolls feel.  I don't believe they'd be in a hurry to add several shortcuts to placate the MMOers who don't play the game the way the ES series has played. 

Again, I have no problem with your point of view and I recognize there are a lot of people who play like you.  I just believe that ZO is coming from the standpoint that they aren't making an MMO for you.

Endgame = raids and AvA. One might say that AvA does not equal endgame but having spent half my time in Cyrodiil, I can tell you that being less than max level there is going to radically reduce your level of enjoyment.

I understand that ESO was not made for me. And having never played any of the single player elder scrolls games I don't really have an opinion about whether or not ESO feels like the next chapter in the elder scrolls story. Hell, if they really wanted to make this a true elder scrolls game, why not just make it single player. It sure as hell feels like a single player game most of the time.

That being said, I really don't care about ZO staying true to the elders scrolls saga. This is an entirely new game for me and thousands of other people who could care less about all that lore and just want to play a fun game. I was merely trying to make the point that ESO is an mmo, and mmos have lots of different players that enjoy lots of different play styles. By only catering to the quest junkie, ESO is really only hurting their own bottom line. I think all those diehard questers are well-served by this game in its current form. The existence of the anomaly grind is not stopping them from getting to max level by questing through all the zones, is it? It may be a game to us, but it is a business for ZO, and I am pretty sure pissing off large groups of customers is bad for business.

I hear the same complaint over and over... and every time I just think to myself that the problem is more a matter of not feeling progress than anything else.

Always the numbers, and yes they are big numbers, come up.  I have to wonder if more people would have been satisfied if the VR ranks were split into a larger number of levels given the same XP requirements.  It feels longer to level, because it is longer to level, after all.  Each zone is essentially 1 level, and given that you go from 3 to the very high 40s if you do the same content in the non VR zones it certainly doesn't feel like you progress at the same rate.

I firmly agree there should be an alternative, but it should not level people nearly as fast as the Craglorn grinds that did, and those that still do, manage.  That said, the loot definitely needed nerfed... and the VP is still faster if you can get it than questing.  Honestly, I think they made it friendlier to leveling, as there are less VR11-12 people sitting there farming and making VP super hard to get.  Of course, the impression is another matter, and many people will consider it a nerf without any further thought... but I remain convinced it makes it easier for lower level VR players to actually get credit.

There's still similar performance out of burial mounds and POI bosses, and still Bardala (Barkala?) B-something off on the Eastern side of the map that gives very solid grindable VP for those in need.

I could really care less about loot. I actually prefer gold to loot. Means less bag emptying.

Those VR12's doing the anomaly grind are weird. Only reason I can imagine doing that grind after reaching VR12 is if you are not quite done maxing out crafting.

I guess I'm weird or something, but I enjoy the stories in the quests in the different alliance zones.  The only thing I don't like about veteran content is how the mob difficulty skews a little crazy on some mob types.  

I didn't mind Craiglorn coming along, and I fully intend to go there once I'm done with the 2 1/2 remaining Aldmeri Dominion zones. If people want to power-level in Craiglorn and miss the stories in the 2nd and 3rd alliances, that is their decision and doesn't affect my enjoyment of the game. What bothered me was hearing about what sounded like much better loot drops that people were getting in Craiglorn.  I don't mind the fast leveling, but it's starting to sound like I'm losing out on drops by not being in Craiglorn.

Edit: the time to level to max level doesn't bother me. If anything, that max level is too easily obtained. I prefer for MMOs to take 6+ months to achieve max level. That's me, though, I've played a number of Korean-style grind MMOs.

  the way i see it , they made a single player game , then halfway through development decided to make it a MMO so they could charge a sub but didn`t really change anything. 

 Little to no replay value , every MMO i have played as far back as Everquest in 1999 , has more than 1 zone per lvl range to quest, explore, grind mobs in etc ,  at lvl 5 to 20  you can choose between 3 or 4 completly diff zones to go to , and it`s that way  all the way to lvl cap .  

 But not here  , you have 1 zone to go to every 10 lvls ,  and even if you reroll a alt on the same faction  you are stuck doing all the same  quest in all the same zones you already went through .

 The only alternate choice is to reroll a diff faction  , but wait  the Fighters guild, Mage guild and personal story quest is the same the locations are diff but that`s it .

  End game is ooo  you can now go and level up in the enemy faction zones how exciting , it`s clear they had no plan for a endgame .

 Class balance and over all mechanics are hosed as well  game is basicly Elder staff users online .

they seem in Awe that people  don`t like their  VISION  for the game .   a game with only 1 way to progress isn`t that fun to play .

leveled , exploited the system to be at endgame in a month or less , and are  trading  emp titles every day in AVA .

It`s like no one on the dev team ever played a MMO before , there is really only 1 path to level, progress ,  there should be more than 1 way to lvl up , and it shouldn`t gimp your character to do so .

 They removed daily kill quest in Ava   people were skipping all their pve  content to level in pvp , can`t have that , now they are killing craglorn exp because people are still skipping the qest leveling treadmill they desgined by req you to  do all the other factions quest zones to lvl past v1 .

 I`m giving them 30 more days the same 2 month sub i give every new game i buy . 

Amen Dirkdaring, Amen. 

I agree with everything you say. I often thought this played like a single player rpg that was converted to an mmo when it was almost complete which ended up making it feel like the loneliest mmo ever designed. Not only are you forced to do all the pve stuff, the grouping tools are so bad you are forced to do it by yourself.

From a business perspective, this craglorn nerf just screams rookie business team. You NEVER give your customer something and then take it back. Psychologically, giving something and then taking it back is sooooo much worse than never giving it in the first place. Give a smiling happy child a candy bar. Then, take it right back and tell them you changed your mind. Now you have one angry child even though nothing has changed. Works on adults too.

Personally, I don't care how fast I level. I enjoy the game for what it is...a game. A guildie has been talking to me at  length about the nerf in Craglorn. He was PO'd because he now has to really grind to reach VR12. He also mentioned that he went from VR3 to VR11 in 5 days using Craglorn as his base of operations and it should stay the same...at least till he hits VR12. I think this painted me a pretty good picture of what was going on with this individual. I told him he was talking to the wrong person and he really wouldn't like what I was about to tell him. Anyway, my take on it is that were spoiled with some OP experience that now has been "nerfed" back to normal. Be thankful you were the recipient of this good fortune...then get over it and move on. The people that are behind you in levels won't receive that OP experience and you won't hear them crying about it...just sayin....

All I can say is if ZO really wants to restrict its customers to only those who are willing to grind quests for 300 hours before they reach max level.... good luck with that business model. Lets see what their competitors are doing. Oh, I see I can play WoW and get a free level 90 toon just for subscribing. Hmmm, I wonder what the most successful mmo EVER knows that ZO doesn't....

I used to play GW2, and my first toon was a ranger, probably the worst class there is for wvw. When I finally that, it sure was nice that I could get my warrior to max level and in full exotic and ascended gear in 2 weeks and enjoy wvw for another 6 months. I've been leveling a DK for the past week thinking Craglorn was going to allow me to knock out those vet ranks in 2-3 hours per. Now that that's not going to happen, I might as well turn this DK into another craft hireling alt because there is NO WAY i'm doing the vet grind again. And I only had to grind 4 ranks the traditional way. I feel so sorry for those who ground out all 12.

Personally I am glad they corrected the Craglorn situation. The loot drops were way, way over the top and I am convinced they have had a significant impact on reducing the value of crafting. As someone who has worked hard to raise his crafting since day 1 and save up every little purple and yellow upgrade material I could get my hands on, hearing about players pulling hundreds of purple items per day for little to no effort truly offended me.

As for the XP situation, I honestly do not care how other players reach level caps. It has no impact on me if they do it one way or another. However, I will say that 'grinding quests' is not the only way to hit the high Vet ranks. Personally, I got through the first two Vet zones doing every single quest and I had had enough at that point. Some research online (all of ten minutes) introduced me to POI leveling, where you go through each map in a group and clear the high-xp Delves, Dolmens, Bosses and Public Dungeon. This is where the bulk of the XP comes from in standard map-clearing anyway, not quests. The only quests needed are the ones in Cadwell's Almanac to advance to the next set of 5 maps, which are honestly few enough (as well as fun and unique). Toss in some Veteran Dungeons for variety and you have yourself a V9-V10 character ready for Craglorn.

Just another perspective, hope it helps.

In hindsight, ZOS should have realized that they'd have misunderstandings about their Veteran Rank design and made more information available as to why they have Veteran Ranks and why they designed it to take several hundred hours to complete.

Makes me sad to see posts like this.

I know they had reasons, but their reasons are stupid (IMHO).

 it`s ok i see them scaling down maintenace and content patches in the future ,  games don`t need a large sub base to be sucessful if they can keep  50k playing they`ll be fine games mostly a single player game till lvl cap.

 and with only 2 servers  you`ll see other people in game unlike other games that had to close down servers due to having too many  and not enough people .

I can't speak on the Craglorn stuff because I purposefully avoided them since I'm not in a huge hurry to level and the VR levels are already grindy enough without doing something even more like it.  Same reason why I skipped the Spindleclutch grinding.  That being said, I do sympathize with people who are trying to get through the VR levels as fast as possible.  Here are my thoughts on the VR levels:

1.  It is a very common complaint.  You see the complaints on various forums and also in game in the zone chats.  So you're definitely not alone if you think it's grindy.  It IS grindy.  And it gets worse as you progress through the VR levels.  Like most people, I got through the first 2 VR levels ok but the third one is really starting to wear on me.  I can see why some people just want it to end and are looking for quicker alternatives.

2.  I'm not saying this is the case with everyone, but the majority of people who say they don't mind doing more quests for the other factions haven't actually gone through the VR grind.  It's not like the first 50 levels of questing.  The mobs aren't harder at all, they just have more hitpoints than they used to.  That's why certain builds do better in the VR levels.  You simply have to either outdps the mobs or survive longer. 

3.  I agree wholeheartedly with Jairone's assessment about the lack of perceived progression.  It's especially hard when you clear almost an entire map of quests and you're still at the same VR level.  When you get into the million + area of experience needed to progress and you're getting like 5-10k quest experience, the game starts to drag on you a bit.

4.  The idea of having access to the other faction's quests is not a bad idea.  But that doesn't mean that if you like doing those quests that you'll like the VR levels.  So it's not really an either or proposition.  It should be possible to enjoy those quests AND not have the VR levels feel like such a heavy grind.

5.  I realize doing the dolmens and POI's etc is far faster than clearing each map at a time, but I can't imagine that's what ESO intended.  Then again, I can't imagine they intended the VR levels to be this grindy either lol.

In my opinion, the implementation of the VR levels was mishandled.  For one thing, I wished they would have left 50 as the max level for a few months.  It feels like a bait and switch to me.  'Congrats you're at max level!  Oh wait, no you're not.' 

Like someone else suggested, if they would have split the VR levels into smaller chunks then it wouldn't have been so bad either.  For instance, if they had added VR 1-2 after a bit and called them VR 1-20, then there would have been fewer complaints.  They could have gradually added the other VR levels as time went by.  This is much like how Warhammer added the renown levels.  If Warhammer had started with RR100 and called it RR10 right from launch, I would have probably stopped playing immediately lol.

This is coming from someone who actually likes PvE things so I can only imagine how the PvP players feel like.  Compounding the matter is that you can't really use AvA as an alternative way to level.

I see a lot of people insinuating that those who are complaining about the VR levels as being too spoiled or wanting things too easy.  While I'm inclined to believe that our patience and attention span in MMO's has definitely deteriorated over the years, I don't think this applies in the case of the VR levels.  I've grinded the crap out of the old MMO's like EQ, DAoC, Lineage, vanilla WoW, etc.  so I know what the old grinds felt like.

Some have said that the VR levels have cured them of wanting to have other alts.  For me it's actually the opposite in some ways.  I've never really rolled any type of alts in other games, but I will play my alts sometimes in ESO just to get away from the VR leveling on my main char.  It's actually a refreshing change from the grind lol.

  LOL  yep  i actually have no issue with grinding mobs all day  ,  after  6 years of EQ  , it doesn`t bother me ,

i also have no issue with it taking a long time to level, it took me 6 months back in 2000 to get my toon from 51 to 60 lvl in EQ  and that was playing on average 4 hours a day .

 just amazes me they keep killing off anyway to level outside of grinding their linear quest lvling  .  soo if thats the case i`m cancelling and will start looking at camelot unchained , 

 just amazing they killed  leveling in AvA  guess they were afraid people would skip their PVE  .

Screw it. This game is not worth the frustration. I'm going back to GW2 when my sub runs out at the end of the month. 

I found this funny. When you click on "cancel my subscription" a link to https://help.elderscrollsonline.com/app/home pops up so you can "tell us why." Well, I clicked the link and realized it was just the ESO home page. I don't see anywhere to post comments. Would have been more sincere to just say, "don't let the door hit you on the butt on the way out."

I see SoR has dropped even further in my absence. Have to see what I can do about that.

All I can say is I agree with Pops...

... and we shouldn't compare a game's business model that has been out for a decade with a newly released one - WOW's business model was very similar when it released... EQ's model was the same also.... Until I played GW2 and had 8 lvl 80's within the first 3 months games always took time to level - and GW2 is a slight bore to me now.  I have deleted lvl 80's in that game.  Why?  because they mean nothing! max lvl is obtained way too easy for me to care about the character I created.

... if you are use to the way one game works and like it - please play that game but each games stands on its own - lives on its own - and dies on its own.   ESO released an expansion that had issues - they corrected the issue - just because people flew threw content that was granting too much exp and loot doesn't mean the developers should leave it in to make it fair for all who came after.  The big picture always takes precedence.  And while I know it upsets some people - it still doesn't make it right not to correct it.  

It took me a year to reach max level in EQ (doing it in 6 months was considered hardcore) and I had absolutely no qualms about it - it was a most excellent game at the time.  There were numerous jokes - like it is called Everquest since you are forEVER QUESTing.   Not every game is made for everyone... it isn't possible.  I wish everyone to enjoy their gaming experience but each game will be a different experience to each of us.   The family played Rift for a couple of years - I couldn't take it for more than 6 months.  Several of the Guild have played Aion and FFX(whatever) for a long time... I could take more than a week of either.  Yet I am happy that they enjoy them for however long they do - did.

I like the fact that you made suggestions to them - whether they take them or not at least you made a suggestion.  And yes - if it is too frustrating and not fun - then leaving is your option.  Safe Journ.

Well, this is something that is near and dear to me: content design.  Huge hobby interest.  I would love to post-mortem the Veteran Rank content design, but unfortunately, without access to the design docs and meeting minutes, I'd just be shooting in the dark and tbh, it would take a series of articles for me to cover everything.  I'd bore you guys to death if I posted it all here.  ;)

I'm just enjoying the grind and AvA like I did with Rift, and then I'll find an MMO that was designed for long-term play (EQN?).

Well reason why I stopped playing GW2 was that all content was basicly gold and equipment trains smacking monster to monster. No idea behind the content.

I have always loved questing so I will continue doing so. I would rather have people going through quest areas than running some ... well stupid... xp train on one area. I just hate when I'm questing and there is dolmen or world boss and you try to call for help, no-one is around because hey you can xp train in craglorn which should be VR10+ place, not for VR1+ XP train station.

Those quest areas would go lot faster which small groups combing through areas. Anyway I have calculated that you get roughly 1 VR level per quest zone and quest rewards and XP are received according to your level. So you can level your character equal speed despite what your xp requirement is if you do zone which is meant for your level. Besides I have never understood urge to powerlevel your character. Game should be enjoyable and fun and you should read and listen stories what NPCs tells you. I'm now at Aldmeri Dominion zones and I have had blast doing these zones. I have been happy, I have been sad for the NPCs. I admit I have even shed some manly tears. And because there are plenty of quests where can make different choices then even playing twice game over shouldn't be so bad.

Besides what comes to quests, well all I can say they are great compared to many other MMOs. So different than usual, not just kill 100 bats or collect 20 heads of orc and for some reason you are able to kill orc so it goes bloody bulb without head. My first ESO quest where I encountered that something must be collected, was collect crocodile tooth. When I killed first crocodile and I didn't just get 1 tooth but several, I clapped. No need for boring grind ending that you need to kill hundreds of mobs to get all collectibles.

In my opinion it is quite sad that Zenimax made it possible to run XP train in Craglorn. Because if you just do boring xp train leveling then there should be button in the menu Congratz go to level VR12. I don't mind if there are variable ways to level, but I don't like if you can level your character faster in one way than other. Because that has affected to AvA and it will pressure you to level in same manner even if you don't like it at all.

My two cents for the topic. There is always two sides of the coin.

There are plenty of ways to make the VR experience go faster. From Doing the POI Runs, to Burial Mounds, to Spindle Grind. So to complain specifically about the Anomaly nerf, you are either too lazy to try and do something else or you are mad about the loot nerf, IMO.

I ran the anomalies a few times when I was low on crafting mats or wanted to be lazy and not craft new gear. It was the best way to get crafting mats honestly. The mats were always your level and you were guaranteed to get 1 piece of something. Heck you might even get a few epics worth putting on. My Templar is stacked with VR5-7 epics... All from Craglorn Anoms.

Was the XP and Loot a little ridiculous? YES!! Did it need to be fixed? YES!! Are there still tons of way to kill grind your levels? YES!! Do we need to quit the game over it? No.

From a customer support side of the world, your post was decent and tolerable until you put that last line in. It invalidated your entire post. Obviously you are hurt over it but trying to make them look stupid isn't going to win you friends or fixes. You are trying to publicly humiliate them on their own forum. If I worked for ZOS and read that, I would probably just truncate your thread.

"Oh, and by the way, don't take this personally, but when you release new content and then nerf it all 2 weeks later, it really makes it look like you don't know what you are doing." <-- Worst thing you could have done. Fog talks to these guys and is friends with them. Saying things like this could hurt our family, and Fogs relationship with Game Devs. You need to think of the family as well when you publicly post about issues. While others may not see your guild affiliation, ZOS surely does. Game Devs bounce from studio to studio and they remember these things.

I am in no hurry to hit max level because it is only max level....today.  That level will keep going up over time so my thought is why rush to something that never ends.  I am VR3 with a DK and VR2 with a Templar and I am loving every minute of it.  I know it takes a long time to level in the veteran zones because I am doing it with 2, and soon to be a 3rd from AD.  It might sound crazy to do that, but here is why I like it.  1) I don't need some tick of a number and a glow of light to validate my progress. 2) While leveling 1-50 I did everything you could do in each zone and I was over level after level 5.  It got a little boring just facerolling everything in my area. 3) Since VR takes a while to level it gives me plenty of time to craft sets to try out and mix and match sets from drops.  I did very little of that in non vet because I was ticking ranks every couple of hours.

I do understand the frustration by those who only want to hit max level and PvP.  I really wish they would just leave an xp farm alone so that those who wish to hit that max level can do so quickly and quietly and go about their day.  I have learned over the last few years that the game is going to be what it is going to be and I have very little control over it.  I can either adapt and keep playing, or I can just walk away and find enjoyment in another game.  There are a ton of other options out there today and my time is bet spent enjoying a game I like rather than hoping, wishing and complaining that a certain game would mold itself into what I want it to be.

I love ESO    I just wish the AVA groups didn't bugout and crash

Well I thought I was being polite but I guess there is no such thing as constructive criticism to some people. Maybe I misunderstood, and it was their intention to nerf the new content after a set period of time all along. Apologies.

If, and this is only my opinion and does not necessarily reflect the views of anyone in this guild, the devs at ZO intended ESO to be a game in which the only way to progress your character was through hundreds of hours of doing solo quests, solo dungeons, and the occasional group event in PVE areas, then I would must tip my hat and admit that they succeeded tremendously. To wit, since launch, pvp-earned experience has paled in comparison to questing. For a while you could get decent experience in Cyrodiil doing (not surprisingly) pve quests, but they nerfed that down to the point where it is no longer viable. Then they released Craglorn with all its grindable content that gave out generous XP rewards, which to many seemed like ZO was saying, "hey we got it. Some of you don't like questing, so here's something else for you to do to advance your characters."  But no, now they are nerfing that too. Nerfing the loot drops is completely understandable and I couldn't agree more, but nerfing the XP reward was just a punch to the gut. So the message I am receiving loud and clear from ZO is this: character advancement via any means other than solo questing will not be tolerated. I'm not sure if that is what ZO wants to say, but that is what I am hearing. Considering all the mmo choices that exist out there, I can't understand why ZO seemingly insists that all its customers play the game in one way and one way only. Honestly, if ZO just split AvA off from the pve game, I would continue to subscribe. Cyrodiil rocks and the endgame pve content is fun, but IMO the price of admission is just way too high.

As usual, lots of good points here so I'll keep it short

Sucks that they changed something after release; but if it was an unintended XP source then I can see why they changed it. Especially if it was also an unintended loot source.

How I see it, people are complaining about issues instead of what I see to be the core problem; lack of leveling options (I'm interpreting vet ranks just a fancy name for higher levels). I recall a Shoddycast episode where they mention the game experience feeling like you're on train-rails and are on a pre-destined path. I see more and more of this being the case as I play through the game.

IMO, I'm fine with grinding the other faction's quest-line, but the questing in general could have used some spicing up to make it enjoyable/interesting. I'm hoping the other factions have spicier story-lines...

For me, the problem is the stupidly low amount of VR experience you gain from the normal quests. If the XP were increased so you could progress at an acceptable level, there would be no need for the "shortcut." I enjoy the quests and prefer them to grinding, but after spending up to an hour doing a challenging quest line only to see your VR bar move 1-2 percent and receiving a  low quality reward (green), questing becomes a demoralizing effort. More often than not, the repair bill you get from doing the quest is far more than any gold reward you receive for doing it. You can go broke questing. I could forgive the issues if the quest were original, but they are just recycled versions of the quests done from 1-50. I am finding it more and more difficult to log-in. I don't pay every month to be drug through an intentionally designed slow grind of recycled content to appease a developer  I really like the game, but I agree this must be addressed.  

What's the chances that further expansions simply expand out rather than up? I see plenty of room for them to release new zones in the sub VR12 range to give people options for questing other than other factions' zones. To me, doing the other zones' quests seems like a placeholder.

@Cariance, your criticism about recycling the 1-50 quest line for the other factions into VR content was a pretty common complaint from day 1. It was almost feels like ZO knew they would not have any expert dungeons or raids finished by launch so they decided to give us 200 hours of more questing as busy work.

Its funny, I was just thinking about how you could best describe ESO and I came up with this: the world's first single-player MMO.

So glad I passed on this game, everything I have read on it is just horrible. 

Odd, given that there are positive comments about the game in the forums and even in this thread.

Plus, you have to repeat other races' areas if you want world completion in GW2. It's not like repeating content should be a turn off for you.

OK everyone - this thread isn't going anywhere....

... please be aware there is actually no such thing as "constructive" criticism.  All criticism by it's very nature is destructive and the phrase constructive criticism was coined so people wouldn't feel so bad about their boss tearing them down or the boss could put a positive spin on a very negative procedure - telling them everything that they are doing wrong "in their eyes", "So, now go do better" without ever actually telling them how to improve. 

If you know how something needs to be improved the appropriate thing to do is just list the steps for the improvement.   When you criticize someone - or something - the first thing you do is to put people on the defensive - as soon as someone is defensive then barriers go up whether it is someone protecting themselves or protecting something they love.  Once barriers are in place then the communication road is blocked.

If you wish to criticize the game just realize that people who love the game are going to be defensive about. 

Please don't criticize any other posters for their views - acknowledge them - express your views but let's be polite. 

» Edited on: 2014-06-12 15:51:43

Part of the problem is that I think some people just have their mind made up and are not open to other solutions.  For example there have been multiple posts in the thread listing the various ways you can level through VR content without doing a ton of quests but they just get ignored and 3 posts later the "you have to do X00 hours of questing to get to VR10 (or 12)" line gets rolled out again.

I was one of the first VR10s in the guild (I'm not saying this to boast or claim I'm better than anyone - I'm just saying my method isn't "slow") and my VR questing consisted of:

100% of Bleakrock and Bal Foyen, 33% of Stonefalls, Cadwell's Silver quests, 100% Stros M'kai.

That's it.  No non-Cadwell's Silver quests beyond Stonefalls.  No quests period beyond Stros M'kai.  Oh, and no "grinding mobs" either.

Actually I'm kind of lying there, when I was doing Delves in the various zones I would sometimes come across a quest giver at the bottom of a delve who wanted me to rescue them or return an item back to the major city in that zone.  I did (most of) those because I was running past the guy so it was no biggie.

The majority of my VP came from Dolmens, Delves, World Bosses, AvA, and VR Dungeons.  I was lucky to have a really solid group to AvA with so it was probably more rewarding than most people's AvA (VP/AP wise).  I also had a good group to do dungeons with quickly and effectively and wasn't pugging with the group finder.  I only really needed to do the Cadwell's Silver quests to get access to the Cadwell's Gold zones so I could hit up the POI's there.

I am by no means saying people shouldn't quest, I did almost 100% of the quests from 1-50 with the exception of bugged quests and quests which turned grey to me.  I didn't even really mind the VR quest that much, certainly not as much as some people - I just enjoyed AvA and Dungeons more.

Here is the the trick to Veteran Leveling (it's been posted many times before here and elsewhere, by me and others).

POI's (delves, world bosses, dolmens) give VP based on the zone they are in.

Quests give VP based on your level.

When I did the Stonefalls quests I was VR4 and I was grouped with a friend that was VR1.  There seemed to be 2 "tiers" of quests, I'll call them minor and major.  For "minor" quests my buddy got 1,000 xp while I got 4,000 for the exact same quest turn in, for "major" he got 1,500 and  I got 6,000.

So, by doing all the POI's (whose reward depended solely on the zone) in all the Cadwell's Silver zones, plus a few dungeons and a few nights AvA I was already VR3 or 4 when I started doing quests.  This meant the quests I did in Stonefalls and the rest of Cadwell's Silver (and the AvA kill, capture, scout quests) gave me 4 times the xp they would have given me had I dont them at VR1.  Once I unlocked Cadwell's Gold I did the same with all the POI's there, did AvA 3-4 nights a week and ran the Vet Dungeons.  From VR7 or so Wayrest Sewers was giving me (iirc) over 300k VP a run and took 20-30 minutes.  Add on to that I was completing random Dungeon Achievements like speed runs, undaunted "hardmodes", kill X [creaturetype] in [dungeon] and so on which give a few hundred thousand VP each and I pretty much got from VR 7/8 to 10 on Veteran Dungeons.  I also got some of the VR 10 Dungeon Set drops (Worm Cult, etc.).

Oh, and for the record, I didn't exploit the exploitable Darkshade boss or any other shady mechanic - I did legitimate runs of all those instances.

I'm not saying don't quit the game, if you're not enjoying it you should certainly not play it after all that's the only reason to play.  I'm just saying don't quit it because you think that you need to spend X00 hours to get from VR1-10.

I also hear that Balamath farming and Burial Grounds (both Craglorn) are still super fast VP btw.

As a writer, I do think criticism can be constructive, and I find the idea of constructive criticism to be an important one. It is only valuable when the person making the criticism approaches the issue with an honest intent to improve the thing being criticized. if the criticism is such that it makes people who like the thing being criticized out to be wrong for liking it, then it fails.

Posts like the one, above, by Ohmnom go even further beyond. The comment offers nothing productive to the thread and falls just short of trolling the people who like the game. It's the sort of thing that I think is entirely inappropriate for discussions among family members, where we should be supporting one another despite differences of opinion and differences in which games we are playing. Instead, that type of comment would be more at home on the official forums of any given game, whereon enough such sentiments are expressed that we don't need to add to them here.

I realize people will post things quickly, without an intent to demean others or drag a thread down, and also that people reading threads will sometimes interpret posts in a way other than which the author intended. I think it makes sense to consider those things prior to posting, and if you really aren't saying anything but are just poking a finger in the eye of people who like something, it's probably better to just move on without posting.

There might be some who don't read the posts about how to power level through the VR levels, but that's not my problem at all.  I am fully aware of those options, but they are work around alternatives to the real problem. 

Let me put it another way.  Leveling from 1-50 feels very organic in this game.  The pacing is good and everything ties up very neatly at the end with the main story and guild quests.  The VR levels have none of that feeling.  Yes, I can just do what you suggested but I don't think that's the way the game intended you to go through the VR levels. 

This has nothing to do with me wanting things easy at all.  I just think the VR levels can be improved so that you can do your normal questing and map POI stuff and not feel like you're stuck in the mud progression wise.  Much like how it works in the non-VR levels.  I think that is the frustration with the VR levels for many people, it doesn't have the organic feel to it that the previous levels did.

Powerlevellers will always find a way to get there fast in any game.  That's what they do.  But the vast majority of players will only play a few hours a week and when they hit those VR levels, they might be stuck at one VR level for a month at a time.  I think they need to improve on that.

As for the whole criticism thing, people are free to express their opinion on things like that.  I agree with Steerpike that criticism can indeed be constructive and an important means to improve oneself.  For myself personally, context is very important in any discussion about improvement.  If you don't tell me what I'm doing wrong first, then it's hard for me to understand why I need to make whatever changes that are being suggested. 

As Morigana said though, let's try not to call people out in the forums.  Emotions can get rather high and then we devolve into name-calling.  Which unless you're trying to summon demons or bind souls to sparkling gems, is never a good thing.

2 things.

1) I don't think they should have nerfed the Craglorn xp.  It was a good alt for people to get lots of stuff relatively easily and that's cool.  People play differently and why not give more options.  Taking away the option of playing Craglorn with the higher xp and loot drops was fine with me.  It was a nice break from what was the standard narrative style play.   I support restoring the xp and loot for Craglorn.

2) Running quest to gain levels is not grinding.  Running quest is the opposite of grinding.  Running back and forth from one anomaly to another is grinding.  It's not that I don't appreciate the anomalies.  They're a great break from the narrative line.  But anomalies are truly the grind.  Narrative quests are not.

Why ZO decided that it should take 5 million XP to get one more rank of VR is absolutely baffling to me.

This is a direct result of the decision to go "straight subscription" model. It translated to "grind, you fools" and has done so for every game, precisely to the extent that said game relies on subscription revenue over other kinds (i.e., microtrans accelerators, etc).

By reducing the experience (which was likely unintentional to begin with, all things given), they merely closed a loophole to the "fast path" through linear progression as intended.

I agree with you it's silly and stupid and does more to burn out players (and thus, is in direct contradiction to long term goals of replayability, etc), but it is also the culture and mentality of MMOs over their history and, as we see, is very, very slow (and reluctant) to change at all.

For me, fortunately, I lost interest in racing to the level cap some time ago and am rather enjoying the exploration and storyline (which is refreshingly nice for me). I certainly can understand why those who prefer to min/max their way to level cap or prefer AvA and wish they didn't have to grind other content to progress at all feel somewhat (or a lot) left out in Zenimax's consideration. Well, more accurately, that there is very little mechanical or design support for the min/maxer in this game beyond the ability to grind solo dungeons or group dungeons, world bosses, dolmens, etc as a means to an end.

Upshot: This game is built around the grind and they really make no secret of it at all. I fully anticipate any discovery of player-activity that circumvents it will summarily be dis-incented if not directly nerfed all to hell and back.

I actually un-subbed because of the anomaly exploit and how huge the XP gain was.  I'm not against being able to farm something like that for XP if that's the way you like to play, but when the XP gain far out-paces any normal path to VR levels, then there's something wrong.  I'm not a speed leveler (and don't have a ton of time to play), but I like to be efficient and on-par with others. The anomaly group grind made me oddly feel like I had to do it or I'd fall behind...

TL; DR- I might re-sub... >.>

I truly believe everyone should be able to play the way you want!

Wanting to start a game at the top levels with top gear is not a problem if that's what you want.

Enjoying the hunt, the search, and the adventure of lore and love of the places you can go, and making a realm a home, is OK too.

The only question may be, can one game both satisfy the power gamers race to the top and the wanderer full of wanderlust for the journey at the same time.

It's not just a question but truly a problem for all of us!

The old EverQuest game is a perfect example...

In the beginning, there was a long road to travel to get anything or go anywhere. You all know the story of corpse runs and boat rides and real life birthdays coming faster than levels. And after all the kings horses and all the kings men got tired the push was on for faster and faster...

It took a long time in todays reckoning but, it was all speeded up and stream lined and after a decade the biggest change was that if you didn't use all the new tools to follow your friends you ended up all alone... with no place to go and no one to share it with anymore.

So you ported up and went to warp speed and you too joined the power guild to power level to power raid and be at the top or...

RainingBlood said it best, "I actually un-subbed because ... made me oddly feel like I had to do it or I'd fall behind... "

The term 'grinding' as applied to MMO's is a pretty subjective word.  Those who have played MMO's for a long time and remember the relentless grinding of mobs for experience and/or resources have a different definition than those who are relatively new to the genre.  Anyways, here's one definition of the word:

1. 1.

   (of a state) oppressive, tedious, and seemingly without end.

   "grinding poverty"

    

   In this context, then I think questing can be 'grinding'.  Especially when you compare how modern MMO's are designed now. 

    

   I fail at reformatting lol. 

    

   Also, I don't think it's true that subscription model games are truly more grindy than F2P games.  At least when it comes to leveling your character.  In my opinion, games are just less grindy now because MMO players now don't have the patience for that anymore.  There are too many other choices out there for you to spend your money on.  I do think that MMO players hold subscription based games to a much higher standard than F2p thoug

Uh, let me post the gummy bear song in Swedish instead.

I understand everyone's frustrations and needing a place to vent them but lets keep it polite and blades out please.  Everyone has their own opinions so be repectful of eachothers opinions and feelings please.