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ESO AVA: Upcoming Campaign Changes - Post Feedback Please

Taoiseach de na Arach Glas
Foghladha
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Posted On: 06/05/2014 at 12:33 PM
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http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/107716/upcoming-campaign-changes/p1

Guys this is an important one. I need you to sound off supporting this idea. This would solve our dilemma about fighting Ex-Emperors wearing full legendary every week. I need you guys to post your support to the devs on this thread. Here's the Keypoints:

We want to make significant changes to the types and durations of Campaigns. To do this, we’d shut down the currently-existing Campaigns and introduce five new ones per megaserver. Here are the Campaign types and durations we’re thinking about adding:

• Bow of Shadows: Veteran Rank only Campaign (five-day campaign)
• Blackwater Blade: Non-Veteran only Campaign (five-day campaign)
• Haderus: seven-day standard Campaign that anyone can join.
• Chillrend: seven-day standard Campaign that anyone can join.
• Thornblade: 30-day standard Campaign that anyone can join.

To go along with these new Campaigns, we’d like to adjust guest passes to have a 72-hour lockout, and to make changing your home Campaign cost 100,000 AP (also with a 72-hour lockout).

When and if this goes into effect we will Call Blackwater Blade home to our non-VR characters and our major family events will be hosted there. Then we can form up VR+ Events in the other campaigns as needed for our VR Ranked characters. It is important that for our family events we have a place where people can learn and develop their abilities before being facerolled by elites. Additionally the 72-Hour lockout prevents people from changing every time theres a new fight going on somewhere.  Please show your support for this idea!

"It's not the loot and accolades you walk away with, it's the memories and friendships that you cherish forever." - Foghladha
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Response:

Banlaoch de na Fhiaigh Dubh
Kaytlin
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Replied On: 06/05/2014 at 03:51 PM PDT
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I went ahead an put in my 5c worth a few minutes ago. 

I do worry that by focusing  family events in the "non-VR" campaigns you limit the ability of players with more experience from contributing to the guild efforts to guide the newer players.  I , for one, enjoy playing, leading, and guiding other players and do not play multiple toons, nor do I envision making other toons.  I hate grinding more than I hate "former emperor's", smile. 

I think that ESO is making a good effort and hope that the changes they have proposed are soon rather than later.

Thank's for posting this here as I don't generally visit the ESO forums!

Caytlynne of Skye

 

 



» Edited on: 2014-06-05 15:51:41

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Taoiseach de na Arach Glas
Foghladha
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Replied On: 06/05/2014 at 04:21 PM PDT
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Caytlynne, this will work just like it did in Warhammer. Events for Lower Levels and events for higher levels. We can do our top tier ones in the main campaign and our low level adventures in the new Under VR1 campaign. This gives our newer members a chance to learn without being 1 shot. This is a win win.

"It's not the loot and accolades you walk away with, it's the memories and friendships that you cherish forever." - Foghladha
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Tiarna de na Iolair Corcra
Jairone
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Replied On: 06/05/2014 at 04:25 PM PDT
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I posted a big note about it, giving support and some ideas... like mercenary assault squads, barricades, and traps!

Feel free to read up, support, rebut, give similar suggestions, or whatever~!

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Laoch de na Iolair Buí
Sekkerhund
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Replied On: 06/05/2014 at 04:28 PM PDT
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Oh, wow, these are suggestions made *BY* ZOS.  At first I thought it was some player driven campaign for changes.

Hmm.  I'll give it thought.  I'm still disappointed that they didn't do just one massive AvA campaign, like I (mis)understood they were going to do.  I'm assuming that their server technology can't handle the load of a single massive campaign map.

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Taoiseach de na Arach Glas
Foghladha
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Replied On: 06/05/2014 at 04:40 PM PDT
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Sekk, The server handles 2000 people at a time. They expected more people to rush into AvA than what they got. They overestimated. From the get go they planned on having variety in campaign choices. This is just the first wave of the various things we'll see for the special campaigns. These are all good things imo.

"It's not the loot and accolades you walk away with, it's the memories and friendships that you cherish forever." - Foghladha
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Ban Seaimpin de na Aracos
Alana
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Replied On: 06/05/2014 at 05:26 PM PDT
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So there will no longer be family events where VR's and non VR's are campaigning together? I'm not sure I fully understand. It sounds as if there will be family segregation?

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Laoch de na Iolair Buí
Sekkerhund
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Replied On: 06/05/2014 at 05:46 PM PDT
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Well, my thinking is that if they'd fix the balance issues (especially concerning Emperor passives), then they wouldn't need to make gimmick campaigns to try and band-aid the issue.

At first I thought, "Hm, that sounds really good." and then questions started popping up in my head, like:

  1. "What's going to keep those same VR12 Vamps w/Emp passives interested in the Vet-only campaign, versus choosing to go to a Standard campaigns where they can roflstomp like they do now?"
  2. "If 10-50's find themselves back in the same roflstomp boat in a Standard, is it a good idea to make it so expensive for them to choose to switch to the non-Vet campaign?"
  3. "If that happens, then will the population still suffer in the Standard campaigns?  Will players still choose to just skip AvA for a month until they can change for free?"
  4. "What's going to encourage Vet ranked players to want to compete in the Vet-only campaign?  Most PVP players like "easy wins" versus challenging fights (they'll argue that they don't, but they do), so the carrot for them will be the Standard servers, where they can maintain a position in the upper quarter of the food chain."
  5. "The emperor passives system is poorly designed, so how many of the current issues would a simple re-design of the system, fix?"
  6. "If those issues were fixed, could we do with just two or three standard campaigns?  I think that would be the best option."

That's just a few questions that popped into my head in just a half hour of reading the post and I don't have the time to really think on it, atm.

********************************************************************************************************************

Now as far as GSCH events go, that's not my concern.  I'm sorry for that bluntness, but I critique these proposed changes from a generic, standard point of view, one that affects myself as a part of the 100's of thousands of other players, rather than as a GSCH member focused on guild events.  GSCH events are anything but standard and generic.  ;)

However, that is Fog's focus and I that trust that Fog will make them work out, no matter what.  He always does and it looks like he already has a good plan that makes the best of the proposed changes, with regards to our special types of events.  Looking at it from his point of view (yea, I am capable of doing that despite thoughts to the contrary), these changes are a freaking god-send to GSCH events.  A few minor hiccups, but overall very supportive.  So if these are all we're going to get, then smoke 'em while you got 'em!

********************************************************************************************************************

Still, I'm just not sure that these campaign are the right direction for moving forward, in and of themselves, for the health of the overall AvA population.  Good ideas, yes.  Right ideas, I don't know.

So, like I said, I need to think on it, but I'll probably repost some of what I posted here.

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Banlaoch de na Fhiaigh Dubh
Kaytlin
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Replied On: 06/05/2014 at 05:53 PM PDT
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Fog,

I understand that you will do everything that you can to make things work for the guild. That is after all the main thing we are all interested in.  This guild is the only one I have found in over 15 years of MMo's that I felt at home with.  You and the elders do a great job for little or no credit so understand what I am saying is not meant to be critical. 

My point, probably poorly worded is that I love to play with the upcoming players as much as I do the veterans.  I did not play with the guild in warhammer, the game was too cartoony for me, so I don't have the experience to call upon.  I hope you will find a way to get us all together and not segregate us.

 

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Ard Tiarna de na Iomproidh Dearg
Bentmer
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Replied On: 06/05/2014 at 06:16 PM PDT

I like to idea of separating the non-vets from the veterans in general.  If the idea is to encourage people to AvA more then you want them to have a relatively good first impression.  So having one vr12 player running into a zerg mob and killing them all in a confused mess of AoE isn't going to make people want to come back for more.

I also like the idea of more varied PvP elements like battlegrounds and stuff of it's ilk.  It keeps people from getting tired of the same old routine.

There is a key difference between Warhammer and ESO regarding alts though.  In Warhammer, you could easily level from just participating in the RvR lakes.  So you could easily play your main char(s) for the majority of your time and then pull out the appropriate level alt for the guild events.  Here in ESO, you'd have to take time out and level your alts the old fashioned way.  And assuming you're going through or have gone through the slog that is called VR content, I sympathize with your reluctance to do any sort of extra leveling again lol. ;0

 

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Caomhnoir de na Ulchabhan Gorm
Doreth
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Replied On: 06/05/2014 at 06:21 PM PDT

I guess with the lockout on guesting we will have to be careful and pinpoint who runs what event and where, not being able to go back to for 72hrs those of us who tend to roll in many events might have a harder time.... but I have to agree with Kaytlin that if we call our home a non VR campaign for events it will stop a lot of ppl who run a single toon..  I myself have multiple toon, but found it more fun to have my VR in our event simply because I could support/ heal a lot better...

 

I guess this is where some of the other event leader will have to form up in non restricted zones to run there events if they want to stick to there VRs and still bring in enough ppl to get things done

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Curadh de na Capall
TuzSeaghdha
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Replied On: 06/05/2014 at 08:09 PM PDT
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I support these changes with some difference.

IMHO all Family events should be all inclusive and 5 days is too short.

Use the Thornblade: 30-day standard Campaign as "Home" and then Bow of Shadows: Veteran Rank only Campaign (five-day campaign) and Blackwater Blade: Non-Veteran only Campaign (five-day campaign) can have organized events for the respective levels.

Also I believe what we need to see is the ex-emperors powers eliminated and reigning emperors powers to be vastly lowered.

just my 2cp worth

Tuz

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Saighdiuir de na Faolchu
Mickey
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Replied On: 06/05/2014 at 08:13 PM PDT

In regards the 72 hour lockout:

Has the "travel to player" workaround been fixed? If not, is it intended to be fixed?
A lockout is meaningless with the ability to have a different guild member guesting on every campaign and just teleport your whole guild anywhere you like.

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Curadh de na Capall Donn
Botak
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Replied On: 06/05/2014 at 08:30 PM PDT

Uh oh!  I live on the other part of the world, So far I can only join the Friday night  Club AvA. Will this be non vet only?

 

 

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Ban Finsceal de na Iolair
Morigana
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Replied On: 06/05/2014 at 09:32 PM PDT

I do agree with Kaytlin and even though I don't have a VR yet I will soon - have two at 45/46.   I guess what will happen at least for me is having at least one other character and maybe two that never finish the main story and can then always be in the non VR category ... or will I be pushed into VR regardless of finishing the storyline or not?  If I am then I will need to delete characters eventually just to join family events in the non VR campaigns.

I also think 5 day campaigns aren't really much of a "campaign" more of a skirmish.  5 days seems really short but maybe that is to feed the "now generations" requirement for quicker gratification.   But there will be many family members that never make it into some of them because of work and school schedules - whereas the 7 day ones will always include a weekend.

And Mickey has a very valid point - if they don't fix the "travel to" option in AvA, lockouts don't mean a thing.



» Edited on: 2014-06-05 21:39:21

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Fine de na Faolchu
Roninhood
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Replied On: 06/05/2014 at 09:40 PM PDT

These changes or a variant of them is needed badly. I do not think that is in question. That being said I see a few issues.

1; campaign time is to short in every case. honestly I would go as far as saying stupidly and not thought out too short. 5days campaign...laughable.

   5days should be 2weeks

   7days should be 30 days.

   30days should be 60 or 90 as the huge and only full on real warring campaign on list.

2; Need detail on how the rewards would work per each campaign type. In other words...why pick what?

3: 72 hour lockout. perfect IF and only if they fix the exploits first otherwise worthless.

4: Suggestion imo they need to limit the number of or time to pass emperorship around. example. 1 emp every 24 hours. period.

5: suggestion: Vet only camp should have VR8-VR10 npcs

6; suggestion: Vet camp should have a bolster to vr10 stats averages

7: suggestion: non-vet camp should go back and have vr1 npcs

8; suggestion: stealth costs should be at least doubled. Yes and for more reasons then I care to list.

9;suggestion: AvA/PvP is still and will continue to be a aoe cluster^&%^%$. Aoe costs need to be increased greatly. This will make a better pvp exp and in general a better event in so many ways.

10;suggestion: Ex emperors need a ability reduction. not a lot but some is needed.  Emperor I think is just fine if the above are added and fixed. There will be no emp that's going around an killing 10-30 people at a time.

   This is my short to the point list. thank you for your time.



» Edited on: 2014-06-05 21:43:33

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Taoiseach de na Arach Glas
Foghladha
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Replied On: 06/05/2014 at 10:51 PM PDT
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We will discuss this in great length saturday. 

"It's not the loot and accolades you walk away with, it's the memories and friendships that you cherish forever." - Foghladha
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Curadh de na Capall Buí
Mystborn
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Replied On: 06/06/2014 at 05:30 AM PDT

Question for Fog (or leadership)

Will the restriction that AD/DC characters not play on the campaigns chosen as "Home" campaigns for the EP side still be in place?  I understand why it exists but with the number of campaigns dropping and them having special rules (for example only one non-vet campaign) it would lock out entire AvA playstyles for those of us playing on the AD/DC side.

Thanks!

 

PS - I think these changes are good, a big improvement from the existing system.

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Caomhnoir de na Aracos
Zaar
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Replied On: 06/06/2014 at 06:55 AM PDT
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Non-Vet campaign is a good thing, I'm looking forward to it. 

I wasn't having very much fun in AVA, either I was following around a bunch of VRs on our side while they did most of the work or being steamrolled by the enemy VRs.  And I really don't like being put into a lowbie  group because I'm not VR level.

My subscription was running out today, now I'm going to renew it.

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Priecher
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Replied On: 06/06/2014 at 07:01 AM PDT
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I honestly don't think it is enough. I think they are failing to address the real issue, which is the emperorship. AvA needs a major overhaul from the ground up. I personally feel the system they put in is broken and too exploitable. People exploited AvA to get multiple VR toons in under 24 hours. People exploit the emperorship and pass it around to every person they can. I enjoy pvp, and I enjoy a challenge... I do not enjoy ava in this game as it stands. These last few ventures in just make me not want to play the game anymore. Well that mixed with other pve issues.

I personally feel the Emperor should be an NPC. No more player emperors, it was a great idea that was horribly executed. The highest ranked people, say top 10 should be awarded a warlord buff and everyone should be granted a bonus in the campaign. Heck if it is your home campaign, the buff can carry over to PvE too. Just the regular not the warlord. That would give them more incentive to defend their keeps and participate in AvA. If your faction loses the emperorship, all titles, buffs, ranks, etc go away. No skill lines, no major buffs after your 15 seconds of fame. I think that would be where they should start. From there they can fix the porting around to players in non home/guest campaigns. Matter of fact, you should only be allowed in your home campaign. If it is unavailable or full, you can go to your guest campaign. If it is full it should allow you to select a new guest campaign OR it should randomly assign you to a campaign OR enter a queue and wait for access.

What they are proposing is great once they have fixed the underlying ava issues. Otherwise they are just slapping puff can paint over a rusty body.



» Edited on: 2014-06-06 07:04:55

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Mystborn
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Replied On: 06/06/2014 at 07:32 AM PDT

Out of curiosity, is your issue with the passives the reigning Emperor gets, or the passives they get to keep once dethroned?

Either way I think Emperor passives are a different issue and changes to them are certainly not mutually exclusive with these changes to the Campaign styles.

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Ban Seaimpin de na Fhiaigh
Cetacea
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Replied On: 06/06/2014 at 08:06 AM PDT
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First, let me start by saying I always try to be supportive of change to better the community events. I think Fog, the Elders, and officers work very hard to make this a wonderful community and plan spectacular events. This has been my home the past 2 years and I’ve never regretted joining. 

However, (you knew that was coming... right? lol) I am trying to understand how this resolves the current issues with AvA. I will admit I’m no strategist and may be missing some of the fundamentals that this ultimately solves for. I’ve read through all the comments thus far and would like to share my point of view as a V3 player. 

The level of your toon does not equal AvA skills. I for one am a poster child for this. Sure I have a Veteran toon, but I’m one of the worst PvP players. I am however fairly decent with PvE. The skill combinations for survival in PvE are drastically different from that in PvP. Sure one can argue more skill lines are opened up, but if you don’t understand the skills needed to be competitive in PvP having your entire skill line tree at your disposal is useless.

The current Emperor(s) melt EVERYONE. I stood on top of a keep as a V2 defending with fire and oil with 40+ others (mix of vet and mid-level toons) and watched an Emperor walk into the keep alone and destroy all of us in less than 2 minutes. It does not matter what level you are the mechanic is badly broken. This turned my stomach for AvA recently and I’m logging on less and less to play because of it. 

Not everyone enjoys playing Alts just as not everyone enjoys PvE. I tend to fall in love with a character for months at a time and play them exclusively. I created an Alt this week but I am loathing having to repeat the quests over again just to level. I really, really do not want to repeat the Harborage quest line. This Alt is still level 4 and I skipped cold harbor so I’ve only gained 1 level. I LOVED the story the first time through and I’m still enjoying the Vet rank level questing, but they really need to give us another way to grind up another toon as the replay value is just not there yet in PvE. So with the above proposal, in order for me to attend the major family events, I will need to make an Alt and plant them in AvA. Once they level to Vet, rinse and repeat. Again, this goes against my natural inclination to fall in love with a toon for months at a time and play them exclusively.

As others have mentioned, I see the changes dividing us. I’ve gone out to AvA since I was level 11 up until now as V3. I’ve enjoyed playing as a mixed group. I don’t want to be stuck on a Vet only server with ALL of the other past emperors from ALL of the current campaigns exploiting that tree with the flavor of the month mechanic. There is no fun to be had there and I will most likely not attend any other AvA event with my main toon until that is fixed. I was actually looking forward to the move to the new campaign after Fog struck a deal for the Hopesfire Emperors to leave us alone. Now all bets are off with this change.

 

I may not be able to make it to the Saturday meeting, but I will do my best to attend. 



» Edited on: 2014-06-06 08:42:05



» Edited on: 2014-06-06 08:46:31

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Priecher
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Replied On: 06/06/2014 at 08:28 AM PDT
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Myst - I have issues with the passives, players keeping them, and how that one skill line completely unbalances ava.  This is just my opinion from being in AvA. I was there when we crowned Nee or whatever on Volengrund. I watched how that guy, simply being there, turned a route at one scroll to a farming of kills. Emperor is just too powerful.

When you look at hopesfire, do you ever see more than 1 color on the map? I rarely ever do. You rarely need more than the current emperor and a former to wipe out all 160 guys we used to bring... that is an issue. It is disheartening, and in my opinion I think they need to do away with it. No matter what you do with AvA, as long as the emperor stands as is, it will be continually broken. They will make new builds and make lots of different spec changes and still own the campaign. First it was vamp, now it is DK w fire staff, next will be DK with 2h or resto staff. Then Mage with sword and board. There will be one common element, emperor. So is it all the other skills and classes and race combos that are broken, or is it emperor?

My other argument is no matter how they change the campaign styles, the current emperors will continue to own and dominate the campaigns. You aren't accomplishing anything other than creating more campaigns for them to ruin. Emperor aside, if you just travel to player, you can bypass all of those restrictions on lockout and guest campaign, etc.. right now. With ZOS's current track record on fixes and implementation, VR12 emperors will be running amok in the non VR campaigns for the first few days. I don't see a point to making surface changes when the entire infrastructure needs to be fixed.

They have openly said they will only make small, minor changes over a long period to fix the broken mechanics. They don't want to make people mad and quit. People are leaving in droves as it is. I would rather try and salvage my current base, and maybe win some back, by fixing the broken systems. The only players who will get mad and quit are the ones who are using the broken and exploitable systems to their benefit. I am not sure that is the group I want to keep around anyway.

/rant off

Myst FYI, I am not angry or trying to convey an angry tone. I am just a very passionate debater. I harbor no ill feelings and the views expressed are all strictly opinions I have formed from my own experiences playing the game. I don't want anyone thinking I am mad or angry.. I am a little crazy so you can think that :)


» Edited on: 2014-06-06 08:41:31



» Edited on: 2014-06-06 08:43:47

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Ridire de na Aracos
Sal
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Replied On: 06/06/2014 at 09:21 AM PDT
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Just boost everyone to VR10 instead of lvl 50. Jobs done.

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Mystborn
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Replied On: 06/06/2014 at 09:59 AM PDT

Priecher, my point was that the change to the campaigns is separate and distinct from the other issues.  I know what you're saying (or at least I think I do), which is that you feel the Emperor problem is going to ruin AvA for you no matter what they do with the campaigns (or anything else).  What I'm saying is that saying the change is bad because it doesn't address a separate issue would be like if they did introduce a nerf to Emperors and someone saying the change was bad because it didn't increase the viability of Stamina builds and whatever you do to the Emperors Magicka builds will still be better.

All of the issues need to be resolved but they can't happen all at once.  Try to consider these changes alone and if they would make a better (or worse) environment for AvA than the current situation.  You're not giving up your right to lobby for Emperor changes (or Stamina build viability changes!) by giving positive (or negative) feedback on the new campaign idea.

As far as Emperor goes, that's probably a discussion for another thread but while I think the reigning Emperor buffs are very strong I do not think the buffs for ex-Emperors are overpowered.  what do they get? +1% to heals received, -5% Ultimate costs, +2% Health/Magicka/Stamina Regen, +2% Siege Weapon Damage?  Don't get me wrong, as a min maxer I'd love to have the line but I honestly feel like having all the bonuses from your home campaign is way better: +8% Spell/Weapon Crit, +5% Armour/Spell Resistance, +5% Spell/Weapon Damage, +250 Health.  Of course those ex-Emperors do get to enjoy *both* sets of buffs.

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Priecher
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Replied On: 06/06/2014 at 10:21 AM PDT
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Myst.. I am with you, Yes I like separate campaigns as well. I think there should be a few areas where a VR can pit himself against other VRs and non VRs can do the same. Special campaigns add a diversity and only improve on the ability to play you want. People can experience AvA in a fashion that fits them. 

Duration of campaigns are too short for me. It really is only there for the rewards. I like 10 to 14 days. It is long enough that it allows everyone to get a few events in and raise their reward without having to spend all their time devoted to AvA. 

As far as the emperor it is best saved for another thread. I kind of hijacked this one...  

 

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Aunvyrae
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Replied On: 06/06/2014 at 10:47 AM PDT
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Myst- if we are going to fix AvA you need to start at the biggest problem first and work your way down to the small stuff. The fact they are shrinking AvA campaigns and in away segregating the larger guilds who do events a bit is counter productive and really a small problem. Does that that mean it needs less attention than other problems with AvA? no, it's just not the largest problem atm.

The big problem is that a group of 10-15 VR12's former/current emperor's can wipe the floor with a 75-150 organized "Zerg" (I really hate this word) of 10's-VR5's (average being about 30). This needs to be fixed. it's the one single most thing that is pushing people away from AvA and the game. In it's current form the Emperor skill line is to strong, and the former line just compounds and makes the other AvA buffs better. it's one thing to face a group with all the AvA buffs.... it's another thing entirely to face a group that has the AvA buffs AND the Emp line. The combination is not only destroying AvA, but also making PVE a trivial and meaningless thing. in no other game does having maxed PVP stuff make PVE group content trivial. I've watched the 11 min trial run videos. There is a reason I call them cheese runs, because that's exactly what they are. I'm not saying the group is unskilled. I'm saying that the combination of how strong DK/Sorc plus AvA buffs plus Emp lines are completely broken in the way they are handled. Then you have to think.... how many former emps actually earned that? Not many.... most of them had a guild that could control the field and would just pass it down the guild till everyone had it.... yay exploits!!!

The minute I saw the way they where going to do the Emperor stuff I was thinking "this is a bad idea, it's going to get exploited and mean absolutely nothing. Except I'm now stronger for little to no work". And that's exactly what happened. It needs to be fixed before they start messing with the Campaigns. I can personally say that after last AvA event I'm done with AvA for this game untill they fix this. I"d rather see a trait line put in that unlocks with ranks earned. Not some Emperor junk that just gets exploited. It needs to be accessible to everyone regardless if you play AvA 24/7 or 3-6 hrs a week. Time put in rewards you for your effort. Right now there is no reward for casual PVPers. They are just punished by facing groups of Legendary VR12's Former/current Emp's.

 

I'm not attacking anyone, I'm very passionate about games and even more so about my favorite series of games. I want this game to succeed and show the gaming industry that you don't need to make a WoW clone to make it. Right now this game is hemorrhaging. It's so bad that I would place it on it's death bed. It's got 5 arteries cut and it needs attention now. Small fixes is fine for trying to keep the current player base, but sometimes small isn't the best answer. Sometimes you just have to go for it all and hope for the best. I think they are being to timid.

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Foghladha
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Replied On: 06/06/2014 at 11:45 AM PDT
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The idea is that we would set our Home campaign to one of the longer campaigns and use the Non-VR campaign as our training grounds for new players and alts as our Guest Campaign. For AD and DC

Home Campaign EP: Chillrend: seven-day standard Campaign that anyone can join.

Home Campaign AD/DC: Haderus: seven-day standard Campaign that anyone can join.

Guest Campaign Training Grounds: Blackwater Blade: Non-Veteran only Campaign (five-day campaign)

That's kinda the idea. For my events I plan to work the Training Grounds until I myself have a VR rank. This will be a great way for us to draw in new players and get them involved and also get some more of our people on the battlefield.

For those that are not going to make the meeting this weekend let me go over a little bit of what I plan on discussing.

First and Foremost priority right now is to stop the bleed. What I mean by this is:

  • Week 1: 95 Participants
  • Week 2: 103 Participants
  • Week 3: 111 Participants - Alacrity Shows up for the first time
  • Week 4: 107 Participants -4%
  • Week 5: 94 Participants - 12%
  • Week 6: 80 Participants - 15%
  • Week 7: 76 Participants - 5%

Every week we step on the field and go against Alacrity we lose more people. Even more disheartening is the number of unsubs this is causing. Of the people that Participated in week 3, 15% have unsubscribed all together. Every night we get farmed is another night our numbers drop. In the current situation there is no safe way to train new players and get them excited about ava when guilds like Alacrity follow us around and blow up the entire raid in seconds. We simply can't fight gatling guns with sticks. We need some VR ex-emps of our own to counter them. Our level 10 - 49's aren't going to be able to pull that off.

Right now my main concern is providing a fun learning experience for new players and still learning players. We need to have a stepping stone. In DAOC they had battlegrounds which were perfect for players to learn against their peers of similar levels. I have some of my favorite memories in those battlegrounds. Thidranki baby! In Warhammer they had tiers. Gaiscioch had a rotation each week of the different tiers. If those of you that were with us remember right we used to do Tier 2 and Tier 3 rotations with a Tier 4 every other week for the first year. It wasn't until later that we started making Tier 4 a weekly event. The nice thing about our position right now is that Prissy and I can run the Low Level events for the time being, Pookha, Priecher, Kaytlin, etc can continue to run the main campaign while I work on the newer and lower level players. This will allow us to build our numbers and get those numbers back into the triple digits without bleeding more people. As I train up new players the VR crew will grow as well. As it stands right now in the first 3 months we've dropped from 1,300 people to 838 still actively playing eso. We need to turn that number around. This is the first game where we've seen that large of a decline right out the gate. Usually the initial drop happens 3 months after launch, then comes back and goes beyond where it originally was. There's a few factors in play which are hurting this and preventing it from happening. All of which I've brought up with Zenimax and the above proposed is their answer to help get us growing again.

As it stands right now, every time I step onto the battlefield, we lose more people from our force. With each person we lose, the probability of us being able to fend off those wolves lesses thus feeding the problem. With the No-VR campaign we will actually be able to teach people without ex-emp elites blowing up the whole thing in seconds. It worked REALLY well in both DAOC and WAR and our numbers flourished because of it. We started off running just T2 events with 5 Gaiscioch members in WAR and by the end of the first month we had 250. By the end of the 3rd month we split off a second guild to house everyone. At our peak we had 1,700 active players. In 1 single battle we had 14 raid groups at one point. Thats 336 people at 1 event (Remember B4B T4: Dragonwake, same day as the new city was being tested?). We can do that again but we need to have a place where tactics outweigh people with too much free time. Also keep in mind those other campaigns are going to be mostly full at all times.

The biggest thing that is hurting us right now is not only the VR's, it's being on campaigns where there is no Audience.  There are no new players seeing us do what we do. With the current campaign lineup things are spread out too much. With the new proposed system there will be a lot of audience to join and see what we do. This is how we grow. We will need to grow if we have any hope of surviving in ESO. We grow by showing others what we're capable of and who we are as people and as a community.

 

All that aside for a moment and on a more personal note, I am just weeks away from having my daughter for a month this summer and she is a huge Guild Wars 2 fan and has asked me to play with her there while shes here. For the month of July I will need someone to pick up my regularly scheduled Tuesday events so that I can use that event time to go play with her and make some memories in Guild Wars 2. Come August I'll be back out on the field as usual and I hope by then they get this stuff worked out. If you're interested in running those Tuesday 6-9PM PDT events for me during July please contact me. I will continue running my Friday Late night events as best as I can (Minus any weekend trips I might take). I know timing on this sucks but family is everything to me. I only get to see my daughter once a year for 30 days and it's like looking at snapshots of her life fly by. Living without her is hell and that month a year shes in my life reminds me why I endure it. I wouldn't be much of a dad if I didn't put aside my own interests to be with her while shes here.

"It's not the loot and accolades you walk away with, it's the memories and friendships that you cherish forever." - Foghladha
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Foghladha
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Replied On: 06/06/2014 at 11:53 AM PDT
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Saturday's Meeting is all about line iteming all underlying problems plaguing the AvA side of the game. I need to have a list of things ready to hand over to ZeniMax next week. I need REAL DATA not assumed data I might add. I have watched Alacrity's livestreams over the past week to see what skills their using and when. Saying VR + Ex Emp is the problem doesn't really put a finger on what the exact problem is. If we can break down the data  and find the exact problem that will go a long way into resolving it. It's hard to fix something they can't put a finger on and they end up breaking something else trying to fix it.

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Aunvyrae
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Replied On: 06/06/2014 at 01:13 PM PDT
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But Fog, THAT IS the problem. Take the individual contributing factors of each thing separately and it's not an issue. Add them together and it gets blown the heck apart.

 

Emp line by it self is kinda meh as a former, but current it's ridiculous.

Former : 1% increased healing on player. Kinda meh, helps but nothing really all the threatening.

5% ultimate cost reduction, contributes to the problem of the way ultimate reduction is. It's a bit out of control. There should be a cap or change the algorithm how it's stacked.

2% health, magicka, stamina regen... eh. Just allows you to move some enchants around. Maybe different foods.

Increase seige weapon damage by 2%, this hurts because of how much they already do. It's not overly game breaking, but if you think about it. 3-5 Formers could take a keep faster than 50-75 non. This I don't really think it affects much, if it applies to Caltrops (which it might which is why you see Alacrity using it in trails) would make it to strong.

 

Current: 50% increased healing on player. Makes tank class (especially the DK) OP and unkillable unless you swarm them in and out of PVP.

100% Ultimate gain and 5% ultimate reduction.... this is so over the top against ult reduction traits/passives on top of they build Ultimate faster.... really? Needs to be changed or done away with in my honest opinion.

Increases health, magicka, stamina by 100% Eh... this one I don't think really matters one way or the other.

Increase Stamina, Magicka, health regen by 100%. Well again kinda meh. It's so easy to hit soft caps that the two flat increases I don't think really matter much.

Increase Seige weapon damage by 100%.... wow!!! Can you say one shot by ballista? I mean that's a bit absurd.

 

The current EMP is a bit over the top and kinda just needs to be taken out of the game. it was a cool idea, but implemented poorly with no checks put in place to control it. I feel they need to go to a system that allows players access to the trait lines for just putting time in PVP. if you pvp 6 hours a day (basically doing no PVP except your events) you will never ever see emperor.... ever. Not happening. So you will be and forever be gimped and behind everyone else. Except others like you. If they made a line that gave bonuses like the Emperor line for time spent in AvA. It wouldn't be an issue. Phooka and you would have more of your AvA passives/skills than I would. I don't go out and AvA the whole time I'm in the game. So I shouldn't have all the goodies you do. But because of your schedule and Phooka's I seriously doubt either one of you would see Emperor above a lot of these people that do nothing but PVP most of the day. Which again just adds to the problem. it makes a skill line that is extremely helpful in a min/maxers eyes and becomes a must to be competitive. But at the same time this means I have to play like a Chinese farmer to get there. or join a guild/alliance that are basically exploiting the way you get it.

 

Now lets look at the buffs. No one will lie and say any of the buffs are meh. They are awesome. And everyone wants them. But now add those buffs to the Emperor line and you get something that not only synergies well, but makes you almost unkillable unless again you are swarmed. And in PVE it starts to make group content trivial. I'm 100% positive they don't balance group content around having AvA buffs and Emperor lines. Which makes it too strong. They either need to change the way things stack together, or they need to remove the buffs from affecting PVE. I really don't want the later so much because it's a nice incentive for pvpers to contribute to everyone. I liked it in DAoC and feel it should be left in.

 

Now lets take both the DK and the Sorc.

No other class has such strong lines by them selves. Most of the other classes have passives that are meh at best, and abilities that are lack luster or perform at a lower level, or so situational that most people don't even bother with them. Most of the DK's passives are amazing. They help with what ever build they are trying to do. And the Sorc. Same thing.

 

DK's are the best single target and AOE DPS class in the game right now. Also they have the most survival tools over any other class.... except maybe a Templar, but that's comparing a Damage abilities that heals and damage abilities that add armor/mitigation vs straight healing. And standard of might is just too strong atm. it needs to scale down. The problem isn't so much the ability by it self... it's again how what the ability does gets buffed by every thing else.

Sorcs right now are the best Execute phase class in the game. No class regardless of what mix of skills can top mage fury spam. And don't get me started on bolt escape. the change they have on PTS atm isn't enough. Take any other movement speed modifier. 3-5 sec you are not going to be out of range. Bolt escape.... yeah 3 sec you are out of everyone's range. if 3 sec. So if I use it 3 times, and lets say by chance it does eat my entire magicka bar (more like 50% most likely) dark ritual will get you back most of the in 2 sec. So again... not fixing the issue.

 

Now, we add all this together and we have a force that makes the game easy mode regardless of what they are doing. To be honest I wouldn't even be surprised if monkeys beating on a keyboard could do a trial run in less than 20 min with all that. It's why I am completely unimpressed with Alacrity's runs. It's all cheese. very little skill. It's why I found WoW arena pvp a joke. It wasn't based on skill.... it was based on the classes that synergized well and where top of the food chain.

 

btw, I'm not attacking anyone. I'm just using examples and not saying that anyone has more free time than they should. it's your free time. Spend it the way you want. I'm just asking for a more fair system that is not based on how much free time you have to how much effort you put into it. Also as a side note, I'm not saying Alacrity has no skill... I'm just saying that with every thing they are doing with exploiting the way things synergize between different elements makes what they are doing take less skill than someone doing it with out it. And good for them for finding a system that works and looking at the way things interact with each other, bad on the developers for not doing the same.



» Edited on: 2014-06-06 13:39:27

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Roninhood
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Replied On: 06/06/2014 at 01:24 PM PDT

I am going to try to make it sat but RL might win that battle. I would like to say one last thing on this issue. As some of you know I pvp a lot. Average 3 hours a day in cyrodil solo or running small (2-8) man teams . I KNOW what the number one problem is. A O E. Spamming and stacking AOE, Spamming and stacking ults AOE, and the stacking of skills that reduce the cost of Ults AOE. You ask for exact names and detail for better data. I fully understand that. The AOE issue is all of them. There is no  aoe b, f, h and o  are out of hand... The cost of AOEs acrossed the board is to low. vastly to low. The stacking of skills to reduce Ult costs is grossly misjudged. I find it hard to understand how the dervs could make the skills and allow for near spammable Ults every few secs from this and think it would be ok.

 Suggestions: 1: double the cost of AOE at the least.( yes it spams too much in pve also even tho many will scream of "no nerf  don't make things harder.. don't make us plan stuff or use needed tactics to win".  but yes it is too much AOE). 2: different approach, reduce AOE damage at least 30%. Either of these will help fighting and thinking override Aoe smashing.

Suggestion; 1;the stacking of Ult reduction capped at 25%. yes meaning no matter what you do you can never get the Ult cost below 75%.2: the ult point gain FROM spamming the AOEs is too high. letting  players pop off ults simply too fast. reduce it.

These adjustments alone will fix the problem of 1-10 players  going in an destroying 50-100+ in seconds. Which is the #1 problem in AvA. ( yes many issue need fixed. this is just the #1 one.)



» Edited on: 2014-06-06 13:30:50

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Nona
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Ok let me get this right.  I leveled 2 characters to VR1 so when I went into AvA to learn, I would have more skills to see what works with each one.  One is a Night Blade, other Templar.  So now to learn, I need make another alt.  or two, to see how their skills (keep in mind will have fewer skills than Veteran level)  work in AVA and  learn the basics?  I see your point, however I see having to make an alt in order to  learn AvA a bit of a set back.  Also what is to keep other guilds in both AD and DC, seeing where our low levels go, come to run over us?  How do you learn from that?  One of my first pvp experience was in Asheron Call 2, where on Friday night we couldn't play with out being slaughtered.  Changed my gaming experience for years, took more than 3 years to start enjoying PvP again.  Since your summer is full (grats on house, and daughter's visit), who is going to be leading these non-level AVA?

 

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Roninhood
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Replied On: 06/06/2014 at 02:21 PM PDT

@ Nova. Learning the basics of AvA is honestly a 3-4 min read on keeps, resources scrolls and what they do. That's for anyone. #1 thing to know, If your not the exp'd team leader best to just listen and follow orders. the very easy and simple patterns  show very fast.That being said I also dislike this new need to have a low level alt. Most of our VR players need to learn just as much as our lowers to be honest.

 Being good at AvA is a matter of simply listening to team leaders ( assumeing they know what they are doing)

 Being good at PvP is another whole ballgame. #1 Situational awareness, #2 reaction time, #3 knowing classes/skills  yours and the enemys. This is what makes a great PvPer an 90%+ needed to be learned is from self.

  Just little insight .



» Edited on: 2014-06-06 14:23:41

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Bentmer
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Replied On: 06/06/2014 at 02:36 PM PDT

The combat mechanics of this game are designed to be AoE heavy.  That's one of the problems of not having a tab targeting system sometimes.  You have to make abilities that are more AoE oriented so people don't keep missing all the time.

I'm sure they are already looking at tweaking the costs on certain abilities.  But the type of changes you are proposing would have huge implications in other facets of the game besides AvA.  People would have a harder time leveling or doing dungeon runs if you nerfed damage output like that.  Especially the VR content which is almost always 2 to 3 mob pulls, less AoE would make things almost unplayable.

I'm not saying that AoE isn't a problem, but the fix isn't going to be so simple I'm afraid.  That's why they are proposing 'band-aid' type solutions.  They want to try to temporary fix things without making changes that will affect the entire game itself.  That's also why the proposes to the Emperor abilities also make sense. 

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Morigana
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Replied On: 06/06/2014 at 02:40 PM PDT

Just a thought...

As ticked off as it seems everyone is about the way the Emperor works as it is - why doesn't ESO just remove it until they can get it right or just leave it as "title" only.  In many other games it was nice enough to have the title and some weapon skins that showed how awesome you were - or are. 

The way the current system works it is too exploitable - that's why we have teams of former emperors out there since they found a way (albeit totally legal at the time so not a true exploit) to pass around the title and get the rewards/buffs.  I believe they are losing more players from the game by allowing this to continue than they would by changing the way it works.

If it stays the way it is... no one is going to want to AvA.  Once you get emperors and former emperors running around in Blackwater then no one will want to go in there either - a lvl 45  Emperor with a group of former emperors will still be OP with the current system.   They will still wipe groups 2x their size. 

The concept of the Emperor and former Emperor was good on paper - it should have been a magical, astonishing feat to obtain - with rewards that matched such an accomplishment.  In fact it proved all too easy for some to do who had nothing but the time to level their characters to max and then find a campaign that was under populated and then pass around the title.

I don't think you can talk about the adjustments to the campaigns without speaking about this mechanic.   If this mechanic isn't fixed then with the lower number of campaigns there will be no where to go to escape this group and have a decent experience in AvA.  Really - if any group of players can find a way to get 10 level 45's as an Emperor and former Emperors - this group will - it is what they do - they like the challenge and then the domination.  If we end up with a bad experience in the non-vet campaign we will lose a lot and the game will lose a lot. 

I'm already afraid of what we will lose with our Vet players having no where to go but to challenge these players in the Vet campaign - if this group goes into the "anyone" campaign - that campaign will be void of players since no one can stand up to them.  It was a real chore to get an Emperor on a campaign before - if there is only a couple of campaignes this group can go into - it will be near impossible for anyone but their group.  You might think I am being overly pessimistic (when I am actually an optimist by nature) but there is a difference between being pessimistic and realistic.  I really like this game way too much to want to see what I believe will happen - happen.

 

Alternatively - they could just reset the Emperor and former Emperors at the end of each campaign.   You only have the title and buffs during the current campaigns and must re-earn them.  When the campaign is over - so is your reign.

Safe journ.



» Edited on: 2014-06-06 14:53:38

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Blienmeis
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I like the campaign changes proposed, right now AvA is in a pretty bad shape.

I do hope they bring some balance to the game by nerfing the Emperors and ex-Emperors.

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Ok perhaps I should of said I have about 10 years now of PvP experience from WoW making Field Marshall, to playing on RP-PvP servers to regular PvP.  Have led my own PvP groups in different games.  Learning the basics on keeps, resource scrolls, what they do is the very basic.  I am talking learning strategy.  What is best siege weapons, how to plan on taking keeps or camps?  Knowing class skills both mine and the enemy is my point.  I will go in with a lower skilled player, fighting most likely higher skilled enemy.  In my opinion, learning AvA is not simply being led around, told what to do, which it appears happens in the Veteran AvA.  Now listening to the group leader is important, so everyone is on the same page.  That being said I agree listening is good, however to truly learn AvA, I need to know why I am doing it this way, the purpose behind the actions, and the desired outcome wished to be accomplished.  It has been my experience learning the basics does not take long, learning the more in depth actions take much longer.  So my question is this, do I learn this in the non vet campaigns, where I may spend most of my time dying, running back.  Or do I get it in Veteran Ava campaign, follow, listen, learn, and scour forums discovering why I did it, and what is best strategy?

 

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Aunvyrae
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Replied On: 06/06/2014 at 03:26 PM PDT
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TO be honest you'll learn more on PVP and how to counter things and what to use when soloing/roaming than you will running in a group. Group play teaches you how to perform as a group, allowing others to cover your weaknesses in your set up while covering theirs with your strengths. To really learn what the good abilities do it's trial and error on your build choice. Took me 3-4 respecs of my Templar to find what works for group content, now catch me alone with that same build and I can't kill things and unless you are VR 10+ you aren't going to kill me either.

 

The difference between say the VR only, mixed, and low level campaigns from a learning point is you have less of a chance of being a gnat and can actually  learn something in the Non-RV campaign vs the mixed. Of course this depends on where all the Former Emperor's that are all legendary and VR 12's go. if they happen to be on the same campaign as you (I mean the mixed ones) then you will learn little to nothing. Your chances of killing them are slim at best and your chances of surviving is fat chance. Which is what everyone is getting heated about and leaving over.

 

TLDR: learning abilities and experimenting with builds go solo/roaming, maybe even small group (4-8) in the non-VR campaigns. To learn seige tactics against possible other organized groups, higher levels, stronger characters go with the mixed campaigns. Also, both Fog and Phooka are great leaders to follow and you learn a lot about tactics for seige warfare. And they both listen and take suggestions in advisement when trying to tackle tough objectives with a strong opposition (which is what this style of pvp is all about).

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Cam
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Replied On: 06/06/2014 at 03:39 PM PDT

One important thing to think about.

Hardcore PvP guilds will always follow the points ...easy ones or not. Under the current system (I think this is right) anyone can attain emperor status as soon as they hit 10 and any of the other abilities used in combination to be OP. Nothing that is being proposed will stop them from creating and leveling all new characters that just do NOT finish the story arc locking them at 50. Then they can farm emperor, vamp, werewolf, etc and steamroll on any of the proposed campaigns. They need to fix the issues that are causing the problem first, like they finally did with caltrops, and then introduce some creative AvA options.

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Foghladha
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Replied On: 06/06/2014 at 03:56 PM PDT
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Nona, You REALLY need to come out to one of our family events. Join us on a Tuesday. What do you learn when you get 1 shot? That is what people are facing right now. The VR12 Ex-Emps one shot most of our force and have no problem wiping out the rest of it. Each number our forces get smaller, each week people complain about how OP it is. Each time we take the field I lost 4-8 players from the game. Those are not just logging out for the night, thats quitting the game all together.

It the current rate within the next 90 days Gaiscioch as a whole will be below the requirement to even have a Branch in ESO. IF we want to stay in ESO we NEED to find a way to get us in front of an audience that can pull from our knowledge.  We lead by example. If we get them young, train them up, and show them the way by the time they get into one of our VR groups they will have a strong bond with the family.

But that said we need a place where they can learn, and by that I mean live longer than 1 shot. Not everyone plays this game the min/max style. Not everyone wants to think about every barebone mechanic of the game. We need a fun place where people can survive long enough to realize whats going on. It's then and only then that we can begin shining and growing rather than shrinking. 

Furthermore. I am level 18 on my highest level character. I can't do the VR only campaign. At the current rate I will be VR 1 next year sometime. Thats ok by me. I'm doing what I love. I WILL NOT stop running my AvA events to go PvE. Sorry I don't pay a monthly fee to do that. I'd rather be 18 than be forced to PvE. That said right now, no VR12 player is going to take me seriously. "You're taking instructions from a level 18!" I've already gotten this several times. 

The goal here is to educate and give players an adventure they enjoy. We simply can not do that with the way things are currently setup. As fun as it is for me, the numbers don't lie and they say a whole different story. People don't like being massacred with no chance of reprisal. They want to feel useful, and needed. Otherwise they just stop coming. 

"It's not the loot and accolades you walk away with, it's the memories and friendships that you cherish forever." - Foghladha
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Fine de na Faolchu
Roninhood
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Replied On: 06/06/2014 at 04:08 PM PDT

@ nova I have a better understanding  of what your meaning now.

@ all that say emperor. Yes emperor in general needs a reduction. but for the record.  a 1-50th level emperor  or anyone that's 1-50 ex emperor  is not good lord almightly like the  vr10-vr12s. not even close .I mean not even that much trouble for any  4-8 players to take down.a 20th ,30thm40th emperor sure as heck is not going to "faceroll" over much of anything. ive killed my share I know .

Also  90%+ of all vr10+ emperors... get most of their kills from non-stop AOE spamming. That is a fact not my opinion.

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Mystborn
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Replied On: 06/06/2014 at 04:08 PM PDT

Cam, you can't be locked at 50, when you are 49 and level you become VR1.

 

I think you're all vastly overestimating the power of ex-Emperor passives.  Just because they are ex-Emperors and beating you doesn't mean they are beating you *because* they are ex-Emperors.  They are hardcore players with not just more levels and gear than most other players, but more skill, experience, better builds etc.  It is all those things that make them a force to be reckoned with, which allowed them to dominate people and attain the Emperorship in the first place, and which allows them to continue to win.  +1% healing recvd, -5% Ultimate cost, +2% Siege Damage, and +2% Health/Magicka/Stamina regen do not make your character suddenly able to win a 10 vs 1.



» Edited on: 2014-06-06 16:10:33

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Aunvyrae
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Replied On: 06/06/2014 at 04:43 PM PDT
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Myst, it's a numbers game. All that helps. The fact that the group we face was VR 10 within the first week, doesn't help. The bolster system doesn't help you against them, if any thing it hinders you and makes you less efficient. There is a night and day difference between PVE at your level and AvA bolster. it needs to change to make lower levels to even be any thing more than fodder to the AP farm train.

 

All those former Emps/Emps that we face got there because of us. Not because we are a mindless Zerg, because they farmed a group that couldn't defend themselves. it would be like you going to 5-10 year olds and taking their money and bragging how rich you are. You got rich because you prayed on the weak. They got Emperor because they exploited, had no lives but ESO and where part of the 1% so they could farm for EMP. They prayed on the weak. When there was 5 of them... they couldn't do much other than farm AP through keep choke points.... when they finally got 10.... there wasn't a thing we could do. DK runs in, Spams talons and impulse, Sorc runs in, spams impulse with critical surge.... win. Yay you can AOE 2-3 shot 100 man groups. Even if you spread out and not group up you kill 1..... they got half your team. This is an imbalance not only between classes, but build types, and abilities. Then you add in the AvA buffs and the former Emperor, legendary gear, and you have a walking 1 man army farming level 30's. This is the reason I don't play on PVP servers any more ever since in WoW my level 30-40 got farmed by a 40 man raid of 60's. Also why I don't play FFA pvp games.... it turns into max levels farming 20-30's. There is no challenge to this and all it does it kill the game. Which is exactly what is happening now. You can't learn because they are too strong. Not in skill or experience.... but pure levels and gear.

 

Bolster is a joke. it boosts you abilities cost and damage to what they would be at for a VR5. Then it boosts your naked stats to VR5. But... it does not take into account your gear. So I dare you next time go PVP in level 20 greens.... I bet you wouldn't be very effective. Also, you don't have any of your passives. So no matter what you do you can get the ability costs down to a manageable level, can't get your regen up to help and you hit a VR 10 in whites for 200 damage..... Yeah bolster is crap.

 

So what they need to do is rebalance the classes and abilities. Change the way you get Emperor (personally I'd rather this system just go away all together and a system more like Warhammers passives worked, or like how DAoC had it with the RR ranks). Fix the amount of ult gain and reduction and the way multiple sources stack with each other. It's not that the Emperor line is OMG OP.... it's how it stacks with every thing else and how it interacts with each class. Nightblades need to be fixed, Templars need to be overhauled and brought up inline with DKs/Sorcs (I can't say that NB's need to brought down or up until they fix all their abilities to actually working) They need to fix Stamina builds to be just as viable as LAWL destro staff Impulse Spam magicka builds.

 

So as you can see, changing the campaigns isn't doing much. it's making it easier to see where the actual big problems are and make more people quit. You can't get away from the bigger problems and even try to actually enjoy the game the way it was ment to be. I personally don't like feeling like a AP battery... and that's all I am to a VR 12. I stalemated a VR 12 for 5 min. With my current build. Then he realized that I couldn't kill him so he went into crystal shard mages fury spam and blew my up in 5 hits. I hit him for 500 damage.... he hits me for 1000-1500....

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Cetacea
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Replied On: 06/06/2014 at 04:50 PM PDT
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Fog just as you state you will not PvE because that is not what you pay a sub for, I will be forced to create an Alt to play with the family on a non Vet campaign. Until they fix the Emperor issue, I refuse to join a campaign flooded with packs of VR Emperors. There is no fun in being steamrolled.

And honestly, right now I can't even play my Alt. I'm at the third level with the help desk because they can't figure out what is wrong. Any Alt I create is completely bugged. I can't spend skill points, items become stuck in my inventory, the escape key breaks constantly, and converting armor to imperial style breaks. I was patient about the quest bugs and found a way around them or came back once fixed. I was patiently waiting for them to fix broken achievements. I never complained about the bugs but rather reported them and offered advice on forums to work around them. I was finding a way to enjoy time with the family in AvA despite the steamroll and looking forward to the deal you made with the Emperor pack to leave us alone as we looked to move to a new campaign. But now, I can't even make an Alt to be with the family for this proposed option.

I've reached a new level of frustration today when I received the note from customer service passing me to a third rep to try and solve my issues. So I may be overly sensitive to the Alt concept, but I'm now seriously questioning my 6 month subscription. I really want this game to work (as evident by my collector edition preorder and 6 month sub) but the proposed changes are simply not enough to keep me around if they can't fix these major ( in my opinion) game breaking issues.

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Nona
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Replied On: 06/06/2014 at 04:54 PM PDT
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Fog, forgive me I did not totally read this as it was meant  to have different servers.  In many ways this resembles the battlegrounds in DAoC, which allowed lower levels to enjoy pvp.  With different servers, at different levels, a lot can be done to ensure better game play for everyone.  We know from several games like DAoC and Warhammer safety nets can be done to make it better for all in AvA.  You are correct unless they fix some of the glaring issues, this game will head to the showers.  I hope you can help them because it has so much potential.

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Pookha
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Replied On: 06/06/2014 at 05:54 PM PDT
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So I wanna chime in :D. First off I think 5 Campaigns is a spot on number for this game ATM. I also like the rule sets they proposed for the Campaigns. This offers a place for vets to go all out against other vets and newcomers to get their feet wet and fight people that have the exact same stats as them. Secondly I think the best Home Campaign is a Standard one. As much as I hate running into Alacrity and getting three shot on my 3.3k tank, we still need a place that all members can call home regardless of their character level. It seems Fog is making the wisest decisions on the Campaign choices and this move by Zenimax will bring new life to the current spread out and highly segregated AvA.

Remember the goal of this change up. it's to bring people closer together in fights and keep the action non stop. Every now and then we get a 100v100 fight, but has anyone every really seen 300v300v300 in this game? I'm hoping that is what this change will allow for. You put numbers like that on the field and Alacrity's little DKs will melt like butter under a cloud of arrows.

All that said I have some advise for players and leaders alike. While in AvA look for fights. I know it seems like taboo to sum, but many people have forgotten that this is a game and the goal is fellowship and fun! So, just for a few weeks stop trying to capture all the battlefield objectives and just defend a Keep for an hour. Hunt fights and have some fun. People need to get back to just enjoying the large scale fights. take a break from the AvA stress and just go hit your buttons as fast as you can. 

 

One last note. If devs are reading this I have one suggestion to fix a major game breaking mechanic in AvA. Please add resurrection radii to all keeps. meaning if I die as Kingscrest don't let me rez at Fort Warden just because we own in and it's not under attack. The ability to move freely between keeps that we don't have transitus to causes major issues in strategically managing enemy troop flow. This also causes us the avoid known enemy troop locations and allows us to easily avoid Cyrodiil's terrain bottlenecks. So in more detail if i die in Cyrodiil I need to have two rez options. options one would be the keep who rez radius I died within option two would be wither of the two border gates. from the gate I can return to the fight via the transitus network. This one change will allow for breaks in the transitus network to actually have meaning. Most importantly though it will funnel troop movement on the battle field encouraging more large scale fights at objectives and terrain bottlenecks and it will give un-measurable value to smaller havoc groups. This forces players to take an active rolls in scouting (not that a NPC scout report would not be a very nice addition like in DAOC) and it gives much more value to each objective in the transitus network. No longer will scrolls be taken from temples by a force of merely 50 people. each and every objective will have meaning and large scale battle strategist will be able to manage what is hands down the most important factor of AvA. Troop movement.

 

Any who thanks for the read!

 

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Morigana
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Replied On: 06/06/2014 at 09:00 PM PDT

Thanks Poohka - and you are spot on.  Thanks for reminding me about having fun :)   I needed that!

... and besides the traveling to players to bypass the lockout - the resurrecting at any keep is also very valid to aid the flow in AvA.   They do need to fix that, too.

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Bobernicus
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Replied On: 06/06/2014 at 09:50 PM PDT
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Well as I don't think I'll be able to make it tomorrow, I'll post my two cents worth now. I do agree that as it stands at the moment the current emperor bonuses are way to strong. Personally, I think doing away with former emperor bonuses and replacing the current emperor bonuses with what the current former emperor bonus is and just make former emperor a title. I think that would be a good incentive for people to actively chase the emperorship  and not just be content trading it off.  Secondly I do agree that in AvA/PvP aoe can be overpowered, however instead of just a cost increase or damage increase give it a small cooldown or AvA specific nerf. Cause if aoe in pve gets affected with damage decreases or cost increases veteran content would become a nightmare for some people (admittedly myself included).  Also I wholeheartedly support the proposed campaign changes (makes it a tiny bit closer to WAR which I loved), as well as Pookha's resurrection radius idea. The whole just go get killed and rez at a keep closer to your target really mitigates some of the damage cutting a transitus path should be causing.

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Mystriss Freya
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Replied On: 06/07/2014 at 01:09 AM PDT
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I'm sorry I've been missing lately, works killing me (and gonna continue to do so for at least a month or two >.<)   I'm not sure what I missed since the last time I was out n about in Cyrodiil, but what I saw was good...  Still everyone seems upset with it fer sure.  I wish I'd been along to help ya'll, sworry :/

That said, I've always liked my PvP hard (melee shadow warrior, nuff said :D)  I love a tough fight and I kinda feel like only the emp's group was a 'challenge' out there.  I'm not so sure I want to lose that.  Now admittedly I've not been out for a while so maybe I'm off base on my assessment, but at 30-something I was out there fighting vets and loving every second of it.  Fighting sub vets, even V1's, was a bit too easy for my taste.  (But then again I'm a DK archer and I hear they're OP on survival?)  Anyway, my point is with this new set up I'm gonna be stuck with no vets to fight until I finally suffer through the PvE?  -ICK-  How about letting sub vets join the vet campaign if they so desire?  That way if I want my challenge I can go get some.  :)

 

Anyway, now if they go ahead with these changes what does that mean for ClubAvA?  Is the plan to have like one night in the sub vet campaign and the other in the vet campaign?  Cause, like, I can only ever make the Friday nights, (cause AKST and work) - if it doesn't happen to line up for me then I'm gonna be a sad panda and there's no way I can level an alt in this game.  If the PvE wasn't so grindy, if it didn't take so long to level, I'd probably be whatever with this tier kinda deal, but as it is right now I'm not too keen on the idea if it means I can never do ClubAvA with ya'll :(  

Also what about all the class and ability balancing they're doing? How's that gonna play out with this tiered idea??  Meh I suppose the Dev's seem to be listening so maybe it'll stop being tiered after things get balanced out or w/e *shrug* Just an ADD aside thought...

 

On the plus side, I do like the number of campaigns - I thought they put way too many in at launch and it turned out exactly as I expected.  It'll be nice to have good three way fights going on instead of the silly all one faction stuff that's been happening in most campaigns :)  Maybe that'll put a damper on the whole time zone own-age situation as well.

 

Anyway, I probably won't be able to make the meeting so there's my two cents. 

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Sekkerhund
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Replied On: 06/07/2014 at 01:13 AM PDT
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They already have the data: they have thousands of players telling them what's wrong with the game on Reddit, official forums, fansites, guild forums and other social media.  They're just choosing not to take immediate action, that's even been cited in a recent Dev blog.  

Players are not willing to pay $15 a month to wait for Developers to fix balance issues.  ZOS is worried about losing subs because of changes made too fast, which may have been a concern in 2004, but they're hemorrhaging subs right now, because its 2014 and players have plenty of other options while they wait.  I'm considering canceling, because I have other games I want to play until the Fall, when (and if) they finally decide to fix these things.

Sure, we can have a big ol' guild meeting tomorrow and beat these horses senseless, but it will be no different data than they can already find all over the net.  It will only be time well spent if they choose to change their thinking and take action ASAP on fixing some of these issues.

I'll even throw this out there:  ZOS devs are welcome to contact me if they want, I've calculated that I have close to 100,000 hours played on these MMORPG games and that's a buttload of experience that I am more than happy to share with any game developers.  I should be doing this stuff for a living, tbh.

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Roninhood
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Replied On: 06/07/2014 at 01:29 AM PDT

@ SEKKER. Ditto ! Well said. 

 

  I just hope they get on this  hard and fast... I really want to keep playing this game at least until EQnext releases.



» Edited on: 2014-06-07 01:34:09



» Edited on: 2014-06-07 01:38:05

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Cetacea
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Replied On: 06/07/2014 at 04:32 AM PDT
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Well I'm not in the camp that the Devs are not listening. I believe they are. They put in the ability to bypass cold harbor after your first toon, they changed it so you could skip "newb island", and they changed the physics on NPC to have collision. These were all things the public was very vocal about in the beta. 

I feel like this thread has taken a wrong turn and I contributed to that partly. My apologies. I echo Morigana and say thanks to Pookha for reminding us to have fun. We need to provide an extensive list of items to change that will improve AvA.

I agree we need fewer campaigns. I would like to experience large scale battles as the game intended. 

I don't agree with separating out vet and non vet. I would prefer they fixed the bolstering system. I don't want to be separated or forced into an Alt that I never play except for AvA night.

The Emperor mechanic needs to go away. Give them nice weapon and armor skins, a title, and something else that gives them the prestige but no advantage.



» Edited on: 2014-06-07 04:36:05

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Alana
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Replied On: 06/07/2014 at 08:39 AM PDT
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I won't be able to make the meeting as I have prior commitments at that time. Is there a way to record it so that those not in attendance can later listen to the discussion? Thank you.



» Edited on: 2014-06-07 08:47:02

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Bentmer
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Replied On: 06/07/2014 at 11:03 AM PDT

Well this thread degenerated fast lol.

This game has it's problems.  Yet, we all still play it so it can't be that bad.  Unless you're a masochist.  In which case, you love it because it hurts so much. 

Perception is reality when it comes to competitive balance.  Even if the bonuses don't seem overpowering, it's gotten to the point where people are deterred from playing because of it.  They need to do something about that public perception. 

And coming from a PvE raiding perspective, a couple % point boost in power is pretty darn hefty in my opinion.  That's the difference between surviving long enough for one last second heal or one last second AoE.  Multiply that by 10 and you have beginnings of a massacre.  Also, without a means to lock onto one target easily in this game, the advantage is to the smaller group who can run into the midst of a bigger group because you can't find them very easily.

Anyways, there are some great ideas in this thread.  And I think we have a lot of common ground on what should be a priority fix for AvA too.  I think the devs are trying to fix these issues.  But it's like playing Jenga and the tower is like 6 feet tall now.  Gotta be careful which piece you pull out in case the whole thing collapses lol.

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Sekkerhund
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Replied On: 06/07/2014 at 02:57 PM PDT
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Folks, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that they're not listening, its that they're not taking action fast enough.  They're too timid to make the changes that they need to, in a timely manner.  They've actually posted about their reluctance.

The overwhelming feedback response from players, is that its a $15 a month game and most players are not willing to wait several months for balance fixes.  This is not my personal and unique opinion, its a common point in hundreds of posts that I've read, that I happen to agree with.

I understand why they want to be cautious, and I agree with their reasoning.  However, they are being too cautious.  You can't tell your playerbase that you are aware of balance problems, then say that you will roll out the fixes in two months or more.  Example of this, the NB fixes.  There's a thread where ZOS posted just that, and it blew up with players saying the same exact thing that I am trying to say here: "we're not paying $15 a month to wait several months for you to fix our class!"

Do we need campaign changes?  Yes.  

Based on their own merit, are these changes both desirable and beneficial?  Yes.

Will anything change?  No, not until the underlying combat balance issues are resolved.  Otherwise, its just going to be the same old, same old in a slightly different setting.

Its very difficult for a game to recover from a bad start.  Warhammer is a classic worst-case scenario of what can happen in a subscription environment, if you aren't quick enough to fix the balance issues.  Age of Conan is another.

I do not want to see that happen with Elder Scrolls Online.  I think it has a long and fruitful future, as long as the developers are not overly cautious with getting fixes in, as soon as is reasonably expected.

edit:  To throw out some solution ideas, since I'm often criticized for failing to do that *coughfogcough*, I think that for balance fixes, 4-6 weeks is a reasonable turn-around time.  You really want to be careful and make sure that balance tweaks are... well, balanced and that does require time and testing.

It might even be beneficial to roll out tweaks in small doses, every week or so, until you can get good data and feedback from the community on how things are affected.  That way, you can even roll back some tweaks if found to be too much, without creating a huge uproar about nerfs.  Of course the largest benefit of using that method, is that you are showing your playerbase that you are listening and that getting balance fixes and tweaks out, in a timely manner, is of your highest priority.  It would definitely help keep subs.



» Edited on: 2014-06-07 15:15:17

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Booie
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Replied On: 06/07/2014 at 04:02 PM PDT
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ZOS has many issues and fixing game balance is just one part to keep people happy.  I have now been in their CS hell for 2 weeks, one week of being escalated to higher tier where they haven't even contacted me back.

The 2nd CS guy that contacted me, even sent me emails asking me what I sent back as a response the last time, because the ticket event he got was empty.  This company is so in over their head it isn't even funny.

But it is all coming to an end Monday when my subscription runs out, I would love to play the game, but for some reason something happened to my system after the major update and I can't do simple debugging on LUA script without crashing to desktop without any warning or error message.

PS: You guys didn't think you could have a degenerated thread without me in it ;)

 

"A delayed game is eventually good, a bad game is bad forever" - Shigeru Miyamoto
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Sekkerhund
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Replied On: 06/08/2014 at 05:11 AM PDT
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Yea, I just got an email saying that my subscription renewal billing to Paypal was declined.  I checked Paypal and they don't even show that an attempt at billing was made by Zenimax.  Its odd, because Zenimax billed my subscription just fine, back on May 9th.  I don't know what's going on over there.

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Kale
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Replied On: 06/08/2014 at 08:29 AM PDT

No one would ever play the PvE in ESO if the mobs from Cold Harbour and Vet areas could run over to Stonefalls and continually one-shot everyone.  The enemy in PvE is restricted from fighting players who don't have the level and gear to fight back yet.   Make PvP the same way.

And make experience gains in PvP just as expedient as in PvE.   If it would take me 3 weeks to level an alt to VR12 in PvE, then it should take me 3 weeks to level an alt to VR12 in PvP (and I do not mean in PvE quests in Cyrodiil).

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Kale
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Replied On: 06/08/2014 at 09:26 AM PDT

I do not think it's realistic to make PvP "fair" for those who do not want to theory-craft and deeply analyze the bare-bone mechanics of the game.  Zenimax took away a lot of the API at release, but that did not stop anyone from number-crunching domination.  The mechanics of this game are very complex, and apparently were not balance-tested as thoroughly as some other games.   Those who spend time watching Shoddycasts (like me) will bring a knife to a gun fight.  Those who spend time in Excel spreadsheets and pivot tables will bring a machine gun a to a knife fight.   Those who have also trained precise muscle-memory across all 101+ keys on their keyboard will bring a flamethrower to a thumb-wrestling match.

An idea from other games that might change this a little bit is a dynamic webportal that shows a player's current (or recent) gear and builds to everyone .  This gives away an analyst's "intellectual property" and forces him to share with everyone.  It works for Eve Online in killmails, and it worked to a lesser extent in Aion.  



» Edited on: 2014-06-08 09:40:55

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Morigana
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Replied On: 06/08/2014 at 05:16 PM PDT

Just some more thoughts...

Saying that it is a sub based game and therefore need to fix things quicker is just hooey in my mind - and I admit it might be just in my mind.  Recoding game mechanics doesn't happen any quicker with a sub based game over a F2P game - the mechanics are just as complex.  We have already had the discussion on F2P vs. P2P and the general consensus is that F2P isn't really F2P at least for the majority since they spend $$$ in the cash shops.  If F2P didn't make as much money as P2P they wouldn't be in business.

Next, there will always be balance issues.  Games that have been online for years still have issues.  I still hear people in GW2 complaining about certain classes and the way they can be built.  Heck, I had a friend in EQ that played a Necro which was the most OP class in PVE for years - soloing things that took 3-4 other players of other classes to do the same thing.  And people complained about it for years.  Saying that "it was just PvE so who cares" - well players passionate about the PvE experience do care. You should hear my grandson's complain about WOW and the PvP.  Yes they are just 14 but their dads play with them and they complain also.   Balancing a game is never a 1 month, 2 month, 3 month thing - it is ongoing - forever.  It is usually the proverbial 2 steps forward, 1 step back.  They are making progress - they aren't standing still or going backwards. 

Going into an MMO is a commitment and there will be players that won't take that commitment so they will leave - for whatever reason that they might proclaim and for the most part they are valid reasons for that individual.  I am enjoying the game and I have made a commitment to the game so as long as the game keeps progressing - I will keep playing.  To me, it by far has the greatest potential of any game released for a long time.  So I want to stick around and see where it goes.  On my "pros and cons" list the "pros" are still winning.  This is always different for any individual player - and to each of you I say that when the "cons" outnumber your "pros" (and no - we don't need to see your lists) then each person needs to make their own decision.  In the end only we can judge what makes us happy.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled broadcast - so please make suggestions for Fog to give the Devs - things that will improve your experience.

 



» Edited on: 2014-06-08 17:21:06



» Edited on: 2014-06-08 17:22:28

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Helbrede
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Replied On: 06/09/2014 at 05:49 AM PDT

One thing that I haven't seen suggested, make the emperor an activated ability.  I don't mind the idea of having a character with the ability to become powerful enough to change the course of a battle, in fact I like the idea, but not stay that powerful all the time.  I like what Fog suggested about the buff being based on followers in a radius so building on that.  Give an ability to the highest ranked person from the side controlling the inner keeps that would give a buff for say 10 minutes based on the number of people within a radius that also gives everyone in that radius a small buff as well. Put the whole thing on a hour cooldown.  To give a counter to this give the highest ranked people from the alliances not controlling the keeps the same ability just 1/4 to 1/2 the strength.  This would add some strategy do you use it to take a keep and then not have it to defend or to use to run a scroll?  Do you take your "warlord" to directly face the emperor or have them move around and mow through a different area of the map.

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Mystborn
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Replied On: 06/09/2014 at 05:53 AM PDT

Again, I really feel you are conflating all the things that make that group as powerful as they are and pinning it on the thing that I honestly think has the least impact on their overall power level - the Ex-Emperor bonuses.

If you play on a 1-49 server you'll never rarely face a Veteran, everyone will be bolstered to the same stats, and you won't see many people with Epic gear (let alone Legendaries).  You'll be playing people with less Skill points, less morphed and high rank abilities, and less developed builds.  You'll be playing people with a similar mentality toward the game as you - a more casual (dare I say "reasonable" amount of time being put in).  Those people who reroll or start new and are "hardcore" will be leveling so fast they won't spend much time impacting your campaign!

Granted it may be a rude awakening when you do hit VR1 and have to face the hardcore brigade again but as Fog said (I think it was Fog) you will have had 39 levels of playing AvA, learning the ropes, building confidence and skill so you'll have a much better base on which to begin you VR AvA journey.  Oh, and by the time you get there hopefully your other issues with AvA as a whole have been addressed.

I think these changes are a good step for the game as a whole and a great opportunity for Gaiscioch to have casual pre-veteran AvA without Vets trashing the party.

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Helbrede
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Replied On: 06/09/2014 at 07:02 AM PDT

Mystborn  I am not suggesting that emperor/ ex is the whole problem it's only a part of it.  There are many things that are only a SMALL part of the problem but they add up.  That was my suggestion for dealing with one small part of the problem. Creating the non-vet campaign will help with another small part part of the problem.  Tweaking and balancing the classes will deal with another small part of the problem.  You jumped to the Ex-Emperor bonus when my main fix is for the emperor bonus.  If I was same level same gear as an emperor and went one on one with them as it stands right now unless they are just really bad, fat chance if they have that title in the first place, they will destroy me.  That bonus to be walking around all the with time in PvP and PvE  is crazy.  An ex-emp with the current bonus would be a little tougher to kill one on one but not impossible.  Now take 10 ex-emp vs. 10 normal players each one is just a little tougher to kill but together they are going to win every time. Yes you will kill some of them but that little extra health that little extra damage they can each put out will come out on top.  Compound that with more passives from level, better gear, it makes that small bonus even bigger it makes the gap to over come even bigger.  One single thing is not going to fix all the issues.   

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Helbrede
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Replied On: 06/09/2014 at 07:11 AM PDT

And on a side note yes you will see people in legendaries and epics in a non-vet. Why? Because the people that really want to own everyone will take any advantage they can get.  Even if you set a 10-20 campaign you will have people that will run around at low level, when you don't need soulstones to res and get every single skyshard and get a higher level to run them through every dungeon for the skill point.

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Tserash
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Replied On: 06/09/2014 at 07:26 AM PDT

So here's my totally random and eccentric thought. Why does the emperor get to keep their 'title' (skills, et al) when guesting to another server? I understand they 'earned' it and should have some recompense.  But I find the concept of multiple emperors on the same campaign laughable and in my opinion game breaking. On their home server I have no problem, let them be the beefcake.  But why should there be more than one?  

 I don't necessarily have a problem with ex-emperor, but doesn't it seem a tad overkill to be fighting a squad of them?  How far will this ultimately progress? In a year we could be talking about needing a server just for emperors, lol. Hopefully you understand my playful exaggeration. 

And as far as the nonVR to VR discrepancy personally I have little regard for Zenimax at this point. I can't even begin to express how many times I and others have voiced these very things during the PTS beta to no avail.  Now they are doing something and that is good.  I hope for their sake this will begin to turn it around. 

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Mystborn
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Replied On: 06/09/2014 at 10:12 AM PDT

Current Emperors do not get the benefit of their passives in PvE or when guesting to other campaigns.

 

Well correction, they get the "ex-emperor" bonuses, but not the current emperor ones.

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Helbrede
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Replied On: 06/09/2014 at 11:42 AM PDT

If they don't get the bonuses outside of their campaign then why is there one skill that says "While in your campaign".  They get 5 passives

Domination: Increase duration of abilities by 100%  2% as ex

Authority: Increase ultimate gain by 200%  4% as ex

Monorch: Increase Health, Stamina, and magicka regen by 300%    6% as ex

Tactician: Increase Siege weapon damage by 400%  8% as ex

Emperor: Increase Health, Stamina, and Magicka regen by 100% while in your campaign.

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Zaar
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Replied On: 06/09/2014 at 02:30 PM PDT
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I can see why it is difficult for them to fix the game.  Just reading all the post from just our group I can see there are a lot of different views.

I think this comes from different level of the players. There are players who have more desire/intensity/skill in pvp than the more casual weekend warrior.  Just like in baseball you have professional players and then you have city league players.  Both still have a sense of being competitive.  But you wouldn't expect either to compete against the other. 

Both the advance player and weekend warrior would like to take objectives and kill other players, they are just at different levels of play.

Right now we may be talking about vet vs sub 50, but that really doesn't address the pro/city league player.  Fog talks about only pvping, I've heard him talk about taking out vets at level 13 level and then we have a few mentioned that they didn't start pvp until they got to vet levels.

While splitting the levels into vet/sub might help some  I don't think they will truly be able to balance the game until they have a more level playing field. 

From what I understand the sub-level is bolstered to 50 stats, but they don't have the same resistances or protections to lower the damage or anything to increase their damage as it would against a real level 50.  It seems it would be difficult to figure out what skills are over powered and what is just because of the player skill.

Also by splitting the pro/city players I think it would also improve the pvp environment.  PVP players can be intensely opinionated and they will voice those opinions.  Someone just starting out, still learning or just not into it as much them may not want to be on the same field with these players whether they are same team or not.  And the more advance doesn't want them there, well except to farm them.

I'm a city player and my subscription is up.  So I think I will take a break.



» Edited on: 2014-06-09 16:54:22

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Sekkerhund
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Well, what I mean by "sub" versus F2P, is that with a F2P, players can take breaks and come back whenever they want.  Take GW2:  I am not actively playing, but if I'm sitting here at my computer, a little bored with what I'm doing and there's an event going on, I can hop on, play for a few hours and leave.

You can't do that with a subscription game.  If a player decides that they want to "take a break" and save some money, they cancel.  Then they're no longer active at all, not even on a slightly part-time basis.  Contrary to what folks may realize or want to believe, to people on a tight budget and struggling to pay bills, saving $15 does make a lot of difference.  Its not that easy to "get a better job", or whatever stupid reason someone wants to toss out there as to why people want to penny pinch $15.

With a F2P, you don't have to spend a dime.  It doesn't matter how much people actually wind up spending... the bottom line is that if you're poor and on a tight budget, you can get by for the lifetime of the game, on spending nothing more than the original purchase.

In the end, it really doesn't matter who agrees with me or not, because the attrition rate of a game always picks a side.  So yea, iIts my opinion that players of today do not want to wait several months for balances and based on the rate of cancellations, especially since I am one of them who feels that way... and the numbers seem to support that.  It may not be the only reason for cancellations, but I do believe that its high on the list.  

Sadly, only an exit survey would give a decent idea of why players are canceling, but I don't think that ZOS has one right now.

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Bentmer
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Replied On: 06/09/2014 at 05:44 PM PDT

I agree with Sekk that the modern MMO player doesn't necessarily commit themselves to a game for the long term right off the bat.  There are plenty of choices out there within the MMO genre itself for a person to choose from now.  It's much like the TV landscape compared to what it was in the past.  Now these days, TV shows don't even get half a year before they're cancelled because viewers have like 10,000 channels to choose from now.

I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing either.  It means that the games are held to a higher standard now.  Which is a good thing in my opinion.  I don't want to wait half a year for all the bugs to be fixed.  I shouldn't have to wait for minutes at a time for loading screens.  This is not a criticism specifically of ESO, I'm just saying that as the choices increase for the consumer, the game companies will be forced to higher standards to compete. 

Game design and game balance can be really complex issues.  Obviously, ESO made some miscalculations initially when it came to AvA and are now needing to address that.  Yes balance issues always exist, but there's a huge difference between small tweaks and large rebalancing of class abilities.  The Nightblade is not undergoing a minor tweak in my opinion. 

And quite honestly, you don't need to make vast sweeping changes to appease the average consumer.  You just have to give the appearance that you are doing something.  Perception is reality within the internet community.  If you get enough positive momentum going then people are all going to think the glass is half full.  On the other hand, if the public opinion is the opposite, then it will take a long time for people to change their mind.

Besides effecting the changes needed, ESO needs to address the bad publicity it is getting out there.  Sometimes fixing specific things is the key.  For instance, I think they've done a pretty good job getting rid of the gold spammers in the zone chat.  While that isn't a game breaking issue, it is a more obvious fix than say changing the coefficient off a passive aura in a certain skill line.

This game has a lot of great things going for it.  But as I read this thread and others like it, there is some obvious frustration too.  And I don't think ESO can take the 'you need to be patient and think of the long term' viewpoint on easing that frustration either.  People simply have too many other options to spend their money to just wait it out.

P.S.  If any dev reads this:  The VR levels.  Not fun.  Lol.

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Morigana
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Replied On: 06/09/2014 at 08:15 PM PDT

"From what I understand the sub-level is bolstered to 50 stats, but they don't have the same resistances or protections to lower the damage or anything to increase their damage as it would against a real level 50.  It seems it would be difficult to figure out what skills are over powered and what is just because of the player skill."  Zaar

This is true but not near as gretat as a Vet.  I looked at my bolstered stats on my lvl 47 and I don't come anywhere close to the stats that Fog posted form Reese Withoutherspoon.  But I really don't think I should.  It is the same way in GW2 when you get bolstered to 80 - you still don't have all the skills, all the resists, all the armor/weapon buffs of someone running with full Ascended Gear.   There is really no reason I should... they worked for their rank and deserve it.

I really agree that separating us out will ease some of the frustration.  I have already made two new characters so that I can be in the sub 50 campaigns and will continue to level my other characters to Vet.  I use to do the same thing in Warhammer so that I had a character in all the battlefields.

I kind of agree that the Existing Emp should lose everything if they change campaigns (if it doesn't work this way already) and I really think that it should just go away after their reign ends except for title and special armor.   This to me would keep people from finding ways to "pass-it-around" to get the passives yet I also agree that the passives don't really sound like much in the greater scheme of things.  There might be just a few things that are compounding the issues.  

Safe Journ!

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Dirkdaring
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Replied On: 06/10/2014 at 04:58 AM PDT
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  I see it as being how it was on the  servers  back in Warhammer  trying to split up the ranks so the elitiest  don`t farm the low lvls are make them not want to do pvp at all  which is ok .

 

PVE is ok  however i wish the game was like Warhammer  , where you could do pve if you wished , but you could also level your toon all the way to lvl cap and never leave RvR ,  after being a endgame raider in EQ for many years , i also had toons on Sullon Zek for pvp , Also played DAOC . and Warhammer for 5 years , the only reason I want to do any PVE is like in Warhammer to get better gear to kill the enemy faster in RvR .  Sadly the game is desgined that unless you do pve you`ll gimp your toon which is just bad game desgin .

 

hopefully they`ll add a dungeon like Darkness falls or Tombs in Land of the dead  . 

 

 However until they remove all the Emperor passives and special ablities , and make it just a title with maybe something extra  effect like aura of rally etc  then the game is still messed up .

 All the cheaters exploting the system trading emp titles with the other factions is wrong and they should do something like they did in Warhamer for cheaters .  removing all the bonus ablities  and making it just a bragging title will accomplish that .

 

Either remove all passive and special ablities  , or create a special server campaign  for emperors and ex- emperors  so the rest of the players don`t have to deal with the cheaters exploiters and they can play against others  the same rank as they are for more competition.

 



» Edited on: 2014-06-10 06:10:37



» Edited on: 2014-06-10 06:33:03

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Nira
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Replied On: 06/10/2014 at 06:35 AM PDT

I don't play alts.  

With the purposed changes, I need to be able to mentor down from VR so I can learn AVA with my Guild Family and then VR AVA with out ex Emperor gods descending and wiping the floor with us.

 

I will not AVA until this is fixed.  I'm happy questing in the other alliances.  It should take a good handful of months to finish the other alliance zones.  Hope this is all fixed by then or I wont have a reason to log in.

 

QUOTE: "When and if this goes into effect we will Call Blackwater Blade home to our non-VR characters and our major family events will be hosted there." - Fog   

The above statement makes me feel a bit like I'm being thrown under the bus



» Edited on: 2014-06-10 06:43:38

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Aiden
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Replied On: 06/10/2014 at 12:51 PM PDT

Hi all,

With all the FUD surrounding Emperor / Ex-Emperor I have not done any AvA.  Why should I?  It is not fun to be One-Shotted.  I am PAYING every month to have fun, not to be ground to dust.

 

The Wife and I have been playing GW2 but never did WvW until very recently.  We joined a small guild and they showed us WvW.  It was ok and they tried to teach us but any Zerg just rolled over us.  Later we were invited into Gaiscioch and ran with Fog.  Fog had the patience to teach us WvW and the numbers to do it safely.  This is important.  If our second WvW had gone badly, I would never had gone back into WvW.  We have had fun with Gaiscioch and have even gone into WvW on our own but that is because we had the time to learn what was going on.  Thank you Fog and Gaiscioch.

If there is no way to do that in AvA, then I would play ESO just  to learn the PVE storyline then drop the sub. 

 

Now onto my ignorant theory-craft:

Why are there so many Emperors / Ex-Emperors?  The game has not be out that long.  From every thing I read before the launch of ESO, to become THE Emperor, was to be EPIC.  I thought it would be the AvA player with the most AP after 30/60/90 days.  Now that would be someone to look upon with awe.

 

If it did take 30/60/90 days to become the Emperor per campaign then they should have killer powers and be able to turn the tide of a war, but there should be a huge cool-down.  If the Emperor single handily kills 100+ troops, I am ok with that IF the cool-down is 24/12/6 hours.  Just think of the tactics!  Is this battle important enough to burn my Emperor skills?

 

As for the Ex-Emperors, have their powers degrade over time.  When you first become an Ex-Emperor you have 75% of the power of a full Emperor.  When the next Emperor is crowned you are down to 50% then 25% then zero.  Other than the title of "Royal" you have no power, so time to go get your crown again.  So 1 Emperor and 3 Ex, nothing more per campaign.  Longer cool-downs of powers, and drastic degradation of those powers as each new Emperor is crowned to the max of 4 only with Imperial power per campaign. That we should be able to deal with.

 

Regarding the travel visas ... when an Emperor travels to another campaign, he is either a visiting Warlord with a title and 20% of the power, or just a normal VR or whatever rank with no Emperor power whatsoever.  Same cool-downs apply to Warlord powers.  This should help shut down the 'summon Emperors' armies yet allow for guilds like our own to host an event with our VRs and non-VRs on a single map, which is important to a family guild like Gaiscioch.

 

We have Skyrim and GW 2 and they are FREE.  There needs to be a very good reason to pay for ESO and so far AvA does not seem to be it.

 

Thank you for reading. -Aiden

editted for sp & Warlord idea.



» Edited on: 2014-06-10 13:36:59

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Landrix
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Replied On: 06/10/2014 at 01:20 PM PDT

WOW, I should get an achievement for finishing this thread :)

Before I start, I have attended several AvA events and want to give a hats-off to those who lead and organize these events; I truly do appreciate the opportunity they create for myself and our family to have fun and enjoy the game.

I want to point out, all the impressive videos that I saw of AvA battles that were posted during beta events, as well as my own personal Beta-AvA experience, FAR surpass what I've experienced since launch. There are two major differences that I view as being the cause: player's levels and number of campaigns

after 30 days I've started to scale back my time in AvA for 2 reasons:
1). Lack of player population. (This affected: XP gains, game-play action, difficulty of keep battles)
2). I felt I needed to concentrate on leveling after getting stomped (collectively mind you) by Vet-ranked players

Suggestions:
Reduce number of campaigns to help concentrate players, BUT please don't further segregate players with vet/non-vet campaigns. I laugh when I found myself looking forward to AvA only cause that's the only time I could play on the same screen as my friends =/
Auto balance to V12, not 49/50. Call me uninformed, but I have no idea why any auto-balancing is in AvA if it doesn't auto-balance base stats to a max-level-equivalent (this includes VR). Keep in mind true VR players will keep their advantage on the battlefield through skill points distributed.


The Emperor subject is a big pile of poo with no easy solutions; my 2c:

1c: remove ex-emperor abilities, hey, either remove the abilities or your head, I'm sure you'd appreciate the non-IRL option ;)

2c: I HIGHLY agree with Fog's suggestions of SCALING the current emperor's abilities with PC population within a certain vicinity. Yes you can still steamroll but only if you have all of your loyal subjects to empower you.

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Morigana
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  • GW2: imagetaker.6807
  • ESO: @Morigana99
Replied On: 06/10/2014 at 03:32 PM PDT

"QUOTE: "When and if this goes into effect we will Call Blackwater Blade home to our non-VR characters and our major family events will be hosted there." - Fog   

The above statement makes me feel a bit like I'm being thrown under the bus"  Nira

 

Later in the thread Fog changed threw out some more clarification.

"The idea is that we would set our Home campaign to one of the longer campaigns and use the Non-VR campaign as our training grounds for new players and alts as our Guest Campaign. For AD and DC

Home Campaign EP: Chillrend: seven-day standard Campaign that anyone can join.

Home Campaign AD/DC: Haderus: seven-day standard Campaign that anyone can join.

Guest Campaign Training Grounds: Blackwater Blade: Non-Veteran only Campaign (five-day campaign)

That's kinda the idea. For my events I plan to work the Training Grounds until I myself have a VR rank. This will be a great way for us to draw in new players and get them involved and also get some more of our people on the battlefield."  Fog

As you see Chillrend will be our "Home" which is a campaign any one can join and will be where many events are held especially as we get more VRs in the guild.   Fog will do the Tuesday night events Blackwater so he can train AVA tactics, but his late night events on Friday will be on Chillrend and I imagine there will be a mix of events on both of these servers from other guild event leaders. We have several leaders that only have VR ranks so their events will be on a campaign you can join. 

I don't think you have been "thrown under the bus".  I can see if you didn't view Fog's other post how you might feel that way - but I assure you Fog has never - EVER - thrown anyone under a bus, off of a train, into a ditch.... although he has lead many of us off of cliffs :)

Safe Journ.

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Aislinne
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Replied On: 06/11/2014 at 03:05 PM PDT

.... although he has lead many of us off of cliffs :)

To quote C3P0; "Oh, he EXCELS at that ...."  Lol. 

However, while Fog may lead us merrily off cliffs in GW2 WvW, he has gone to extraordinary lengths to never leave someone behind, even if they aren't GSCH but simply running with us or SORC.  It's impressive - and just ask Aiden how hard it is to impress the wife. ;)  I'll second Morigana, I think Fog and the GSCH officers will do everything they can to get us organized in a manner not to throw anybody under the bus - but they can only work with what ZOS gives us and that we'll have to wait and see.

Now having finally traced thru multiple Forum posts both on ESO and here, Aiden & I may have a much better understanding of the multiple ways this has been developing.  What Aiden was trying to say earlier was that we came into ESO thinking there was to be only 1 Emperor crowned per campaign for the timeframe, not that it was going to be traded back and forth.  There were several suggestions on the forum which combined would help.

1)  Emperor powers to be made free (no pts to refund that way), but develop slowly - each needing an additional 24hrs to develop after the Emperor has been declared.  Thus making it that an Emperor has to hold the title 5 days to develop all powers and be confirmed in that title.  Otherwise he is not a former Emperor title holder.

2)  All Emperor powers expire with abdication or deposed.  If an Emperor has held the title for the 5 days necessary AND actively contributed to the defense of the Empire, then they will become Warlord to the next Emperor of that Alliance with a couple special powers for defense/leadership of the realm.  That Warlord becomes a retired Emperor when his Emperor is defeated or abdicates.  All retired/former Emperors are in title only with maybe a special skin or emote - no powers.

3)  Emperor/Warlord powers are confined to Cyrodiil ONLY and are CAMPAIGN LOCKED, thus usable only on that campaign.  This means there should only be 1 Emperor w/power and 1 Warlord w/power per Campaign/server and those powers do not transfer to other Campaigns/Servers - thus solving the army of Emps problem.

4)  Emperor/Warlord powers are influenced by the number of followers of that Alliance that are in a specific radius to that Emperor/Warlord at that time.  Thus the Alliance followers help determine the degree of power such can use.  (Great suggestion Fog!)

I like the idea of a non-VR campaign for us newbies to learn and train in.  It should help alleviate frustration while also helping us train to become better and more effective players.  Aiden and I also really appreciate Fog's idea to make the non-VR campaign our guesting campaign for training while maintaining home campaigns for EP and an 'alt home' for those with alts in AD and DC.  

 (editted for clarification)



» Edited on: 2014-06-11 15:13:58

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